podficmeta | Podfic Entries on Fanlore

Podfic Entries on Fanlore

There's currently a discussion post going on at

fanlore about how podfic entries should be made. I'd really appreciate hearing more opinions from podficcers on the matter.

For those interested, here's a little background on the situation.

Back in June there was a post on

fanlore asking for suggestions of useful subcategories for the Fanworks category.

anatsuno suggested a podfic subcategory. A template and category for podfic was created, but with a sort of warning air to the discussion that there needs to be more podfic entries on Fanlore to justify having the category.

In response to this, and in honour of amplirecathon, I made it a personal goal to make a Fanlore page for every podfic that was rec'ed over there. Using the new podfic template and the Written by the Victors podfic page as a reference I started making entries. I uploaded about 20 of them in July, only to have them all edited by Fanlore Gardeners right away. I had named the pages in the same format as Written by the Victors (podfic) page, but it turns out, you only add the (podfic) honourific if there's a need to disambiguate it from another page. Since most of the pages I was making didn't have any conflicting pages on Fanlore they were all renamed to "Title" instead of "Title (podfic)"

I was slightly uncomfortable with this but didn't want to go against Fanlore's rules, so just kind of left things as they were. Until this week when it was noticed that the entry for This Never Happened had been changed. Which, of course, it's a wiki, people make changes, but in this case, the entry about a podfic was changed to say that This Never Happened is a fic which happened to have a podfic about it.

There was nothing meaningful added about the fic to the entry, all the info in the entry was still about the podfic. The change just... left the impression that the fic was the "real" fanwork and that the podfic was just something that happened because of it.

And I'm not saying that's what the editor was intending to do. But... I think that's how a lot of fandom sees podfic. As this thing that happens to fanfics, but isn't very notable on it's own. The thread on

fail_fandomanon certainly implies this (note, that thread is in response to the initial discussions over podfic entries on Fanlore, but they completely misinterpreted what was going on).

I feel that, until there's some stronger indication in the Fanlore entries that the entry is about the podfic well meaning editors are going to continue changing them so they're fic entries which happen to have podfics. The entry on

fanlore is discussing different ways we can make this happen but it's also kindled a new discussion about whether or not podfics should have their own pages, which frustrates me and also confirms that podfic isn't being thought of as its own work. So yeah, more voices in this would be appreciated.

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I have to say that conversation is way over my head:(

It also looks like other forms of fanworks are not appreciated/noticed/mentioned (art, vids) which is a damn shame.

This post is over your head? Or the discussion on

fanlore?

And yeah, there's a lot missing from Fanlore and I think what people don't realize is that some of the rules they have to try and keep things fair and even are actually causing the problems that keep certain fanworks from being there. /o\

The discussion on fanlore. Sorry about the confusion.

I have never used fanlore. I'm not really sure why people use it, although I'm sure it's driven traffic to a specific fic of mine that is (randomly) mentioned there.

What I don't understand about the parent org of fanlore and AO3 is why they are so text biased. Yes, it seems like the majority of fanwork (now and historically) is/was text based, but surely that will change over time, especially as media becomes easier to manipulate.

I really like the idea of Fanlore. I'm interested in the history of fandom, I like having a resource where I can look certain fannish things up. And having multiple people being able to edit a single entry is why I moved the Blanket Permission to Podfic List there.

OTW... well, it was founded by fic writers (and vidders) and, on the budget they have, it's easier to only deal in text. The problem is, their vision is so big that they just can't accommodate it. They say they want to be there for all of fandom, but they just don't have those resources. And since they have a history with text based things, because that's easier, it's what they focus on.

I've actually had some pretty good experiences reaching out to various parts of the OTW, asking for accommodations for podfic. Things were mostly going well on this topic when I was only speaking to the Fanlore Gardeners.

Unfortunately there are people who feel that, by pointing out that podfic doesn't really fit the pre-made moulds they have, and working to find a way to fit in comfortable, we're being uppity or are special snowflakes. I feel like these people are basically telling me to sit down, shut up and deal with the uncomfortable fit. Which isn't very welcoming.

And sadly, I'm getting to the point where I'm ready to just give up, because constantly fighting is just too hard. I hate feeling this way, but it's where I'm at. /o\

Ugh. I'm really sorry that you are feeling this way. I don't understand the technicalities (as I said, it is way over my head), but to me, it looks like you are trailblazing. That's definitely a hard place to be in. It looks like you are getting some respect and I'm happy to hear that OTW people aren't giving you a hard time.

I have a hard time understanding why people feel threatened when someone says, "hey, this isn't working for me. Can we find another way to do this that will include me?".

You are doing good work. I can understand if you are ready to bow out at this point.

Thanks. I appreciated reading your comment this weekend, when I was feeling rather depressed about the whole affair and wondering if it was worth it. I didn't have the energy to respond earlier, but I appreciated reading it. :)

Oh, I didn't necessarily expect a response. I'm glad you appreciated it.

You know, I don't know if what are you doing will effect change right now, but I think that change is inevitable. I listened to dodificus's post the other day and was just bowled over by what she had to say. I am pretty sure you are on the same page with her. I think that you all are pioneers. Really. It's a damned hard slog and change is slow, but I think it will happen. :D

Yeah, I listened to dodi's podcast too. All the podficcers on my feed got pretty riled up over the FFA thread.

Things are changing though. And I'll admit, when I have more energy to spare, feeling like a pioneer of podfic is actually one of the things I enjoy most about podfic fandom. When I first got into fandom I was pretty into vids and obsessed over them, but not like I do podfic, because vids didn't need that. This way is a lot more fulfilling, it just takes a lot more energy.

I am raising two kids. I know exactly what you mean. ♥

(I stayed away from the FFA thread. I stay away from it on principle. I need fandom to be a happy shiny place for me.)

I was wondering, so I took a look at Fanlore, and was kind of shocked.

What a search for podfic looks like now (all those redirects, those are "Hi! Redoing all your work!" notices, aren't they?):

What an entry for a podfic looks like now:

Which is ridiculous. If I want to read about podfic, I don't want to have to wade through a lot of fic summaries and reviews. I want to know what that podfic did that was new and original, how it was recorded (I'm a geek, I want to know OS and program information /o\ ), the podfic's reception in fandom, and reviews and responses to the podfic.

It also raises the question of what happens with podfic anthologies: will they be broken up, each fic in an anthology appended like an afterthought to fic entries? I'd much rather have them together, with links to fic pages (and to individual podfic pages, if for example one of the podfics in an anthology was notable for, say, being sung a cappella, etc.).

Yeah, most of those pages showing as a redirect were pages I created. The redirect is there because originally in the name I included (podfic) and then later a gardener removed it. They mostly didn't change the content though. The fic summaries and reviews were things I added. Like I said in my entry, the way I approached making these entries was by going through amplirecathon and basing the entries off the recs given there.

Unfortunately a lot of the information you said you'd be interested in seeing isn't information easy to find. I think that'd be awesome information to add to the entries! But it would require a level of knowledge about the podfic I often don't have.

It also raises the question of what happens with podfic anthologies: will they be broken up, each fic in an anthology appended like an afterthought to fic entries? I'd much rather have them together, with links to fic pages (and to individual podfic pages, if for example one of the podfics in an anthology was notable for, say, being sung a cappella, etc.)
It depends on who adds them and how they choose to set things up. I will say though, I think anthologies have mostly been kept together from what I've seen.

I just stumbled over your entry by searching for something on the AO3 and it's disheartening to see that fanlore seems to have an unreflected fic bias just as strong as the AO3's. This is ridiculous, have these issues been solved since you posted this?

Edited 2013-03-04 14:41 (UTC)

Well, the naming convention of pages wasn't changed, however there were other changes made. Mainly the template for podfic was adjusted to make it clearer that the page in question was for a podfic. I was mostly satisfied. :)

Awwww, that's really good to hear! :D I have to say looking at the naming conventions, it's a bit nonsensical to me, in that Title and Title (podfic) would make the relationship of the works than Title and Title (story) but in the grand scheme of things, I suppose that's minor. Thanks for they reply!

I think what's supposed to happen, is if there's a podfic, Title, and later a fic entry, Title (Story), is made, than the original entry is supposed to have it's name changed to Title (podfic) and Title becomes the disambiguation page? I haven't seen it happen, personally, but the gardeners seem pretty on top of these things so I don't doubt that they'd get on it.

The only thing is if there's a slight change in how the naming is done, then none of the disambiguation will happen. Like, in the case of Pairing Pendragon/Merlin. The fic entry is under Pairing: Pendragon/Merlin and the podfic is under Pairing Pendragon/Merlin. Since the one has a : and the other one doesn't, neither is disambiguated and they're just left on their own like they're the only entries. And when I asked that a disambiguation be made I was told no. :-/ I was told they only disambiguate for the technical reason of 2 entries having identical names (which the URL standard can't handle).

Yeah, that's a bit weird and also not very user friendly. I hope it'll get sorted out in the future.

I don't really use fanlore all that much (although it is the site that introduced me to podfic in the first place; if you google podfic, its introduction to podfic is the first thing that comes up), but in response to the comments that AO3 is text biased, I don't necessarily think so.

First off, as far as I know, AO3 is the only site made for fanworks, that supports podfic, and has a rapidly growing podfic tag that's easy to navigate.

Secondly, the creators have advocated podfic specifically on their tumblr page, and have made several recs and links to it on that page.

Overall I think AO3 is a pretty podfic friendly place. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents here. :3

Sorry it took me so long to respond. It's the last week of school for me and I've been busy with all that entails. I also wanted to respond in an informative and thoughtful way, so I've been writing this for a while now.

in response to the comments that AO3 is text biased, I don't necessarily think so.
I don't think AO3/OTW is anti-podfic or anything like that, but I gotta say, I doubt even AO3/OTW would deny that AO3 is text biased. The archive was designed to house written works, you can see it all over the site.

The bias is visible in the terminology used throughout the site that refers to creators as authors. The fact that one of the major sorting criteria/header info points is word count; word count is pretty useless if you're posting art or vids, and it's functionally useless for podficcers, since we can't manipulate the number to reflect the fic's word count.

If AO3 were truly unbiased towards text, there wouldn't be this default assumption that all works are fic. The different works categories (ie. having different categories for fic/vids/podfic/fanart/crafts/etc.) would have been implemented from the start, rather than worked on later as a bandaid solution when users complained (that are supposed to be in the process of being made right now, though I admit I haven't followed up on their progress lately).

If AO3 really was designed for all kinds of fanworks, we'd have features like thumbnail viewing of artwork, rather than/as well as work summaries, we'd have length indicators that worked with time (and probably other things too) as well as word count, we'd have better visibility for the various ways different works can be related (rather than assuming that all related works are secondary or translations, as the "inspired by" feature currently treats things), we'd have ways of making a single work entry a multimedia entry with multiple creators credited for their parts instead of having to either break the work into multiple parts or have no way of easily, visibly crediting individuals.

Don't get me wrong, I know AO3 had to start somewhere, I know they couldn't have had a perfect archive on the first reveal, I know it's still a work in progress. AO3 fully acknowledged that they started from fic and built around that, hence my comments on their text bias. Saying that something is biased doesn't mean that they are against everything else. I'm not saying AO3 was wrong to have that bias, that it wasn't a logical starting place for them. I am a little frustrated by it, as someone whose fannish works don't typically fall under that bias. I'm certainly frustrated that the bias remains so strong, even as other media make a place for themselves on the archive.

I also appreciate that OTW/AO3/Fanlore/etc. have helped raise the visibility of podfic. I don't feel the need to start every request for permission to podfic with an explanation of what podfic is, for one thing. Hell, a lot of the writers I choose to podfic are ones listed on Fanlore's Blanket Permission to Podfic list (which is an entry I initially created and one I update regularly). I'm certainly not against OTW or their products, not even as relating to podfic:

One of the comms I run does its reveals on AO3 (which would have been difficult to do on other sites)

All of my podfic is posted to AO3

I've written tutorials to help podficcers post their podfics to AO3

This post you've responded to was my attempts to work with Fanlore to bring a greater representation of podfic to the wiki, in a way that podficcers felt comfortable with and felt reflected our community (Fanlore isn't meant to be prescriptive, after all)

Hell, there's a small ship based on slashing anthropomorphisms of fanlore_news and podfic (an account I run), which I've encouraged (there's fic)!

I even volunteered for the OTW for a while, on the Strategic Planning Committee (though it was timed very badly and I had to drop out, due to RL time commitments).

I'm not sure what specifically you're reacting to in your comment (I think it's the larger conversation, rather than this specific post? But it's been over a year since this conversation happened, so I don't remember all the details), but I can guess. I, and others, are often frustrated with the OTW/AO3 and their priorities. It's hard for me to give them too much credit for the ways they've allowed podfic to be present on AO3, when I was there, if not leading the way, for many of the confrontations that lead to the features we have today.

I was the one who got audio streaming on AO3's radar and I was the one who pushed to get it implemented. It was only added because it was a requirement I set for

pod_together being hosted on AO3. The first two years of that comm, we were working right down to the deadline to get streaming working. Hell, the second year it was only hours after posting was to start that we got it working, and I had to personally host the streaming code.
I also host a number of podficcers so that they can have working streams on AO3, since AO3 doesn't host files (not that I'm necessarily pushing for that, personally) and many of the free options for hosting available don't offer streaming, or their streaming codes don't work on AO3. (I should also note I host not just podficcers, but vidders, fanartist, and fic writers too, sometimes because they can't properly host their fic on AO3).

A while back (a year or two?) if you clicked the podfic tag, you also got a ton of fics in the results, since "podfic available" was wrangled to podfic. This doesn't sound too bad on the surface, but it made filtering/sorting pretty impossible. When searching for the most popular podfics (by sorting by kudos/comments/hits) almost all the top hits were fic. It took podficcers intervening to get the tags unwrangled (and since then the Podfic & Podficced Works tag was created to help).

It also took work on podficcer's parts to get our mention on the homepage.

And so far AO3 has shown to be helpful in making small, easy changes to help podficcers, but when it comes to anything that requires more time/effort, it's anyone's guess if we'll get anything more than smiles and nods.

For example, one of the features that podficcers use heavily is the "inspired by" linking feature. It's a feature that clearly wasn't designed for podfic: the terminology doesn't quite fit, the link to the podfic that appears on the fic (once it's been approved), only appears at the bottom of the last chapter (when a lot of people would rather see it at the top of the first), as though the only inspired by works expected are remixes or sequels. AO3 does generate a link saying that there are notes at the end, but it doesn't specify what kind of note is there (no distinction between author's notes and inspired works).

In July 2012 I reported that even that little bit of notification at the header was missing in some cases. It turns out that the only way the notice would show up is if the author didn't have any author's notes at all. It took till February for someone to code the fix for this, which, actually, isn't that bad, though I was told it was an easy fix and someone volunteered right away to code it when I brought the matter up.

So, it's been coded since February, wanna guess when it was implemented? Last month. This was a big deal for podficcers, I followed up on it and it still took over a year and 9 months after it was coded before it went live. It was such a low priority for AO3 that it languished in the done pile, waiting for final approval. And this wasn't even a fix that only affected podficcers, podficcers were just the ones who cared about it most.

Or, on a similar note, the notifications that let creators know when someone has posted something to AO3 that was "inspired" by their work, don't work correctly. It's been a problem for a while, I'm not sure when it was first reported, I came across people discussing it 7 months ago. At that time, IIRC from the discussions I was reading, there had been a problem with multiple notifications going out in certain situations, so they turned the feature off completely, without any announcement, which lead to a number of awkward situations for podficcers who relied upon that feature to notify writers with blanket permission that a podfic had been made. Even now, the notifications aren't always going out.

And pretty much all those fixes/changes have been relatively small and/or related to existing infrastructure. That's not even touching the number of feature requests that podficcers have asked for to make AO3 actually work for podfic (right now podficcers have to work to make AO3 work for podfic, which shouldn't be necessary). We've practically been begging for different works categories for years, but it was only when wank broke out over meta inclusion that making categories became any sort of priority.
I don't even have the heart or the energy to go through trello to find all the great things that have been suggested but never acted on (though I'm pleased to see PMs in the approved list).

And, like, I know most of the people using AO3 are using it for fic purposes, I get that. But the thing is, AO3's mission statement isn't just about fic! They say "if you enjoy consuming, creating or commenting on fanworks, the archive is for you. This archive is a permanent, panfandom place for fanworks, built by fans for fans. Whichever way you use the archive, you're part of this" and I can't help but feel that they're not living up to that, or coming close. The problem with only catering to your current audience is that it's a self-fulfilling prophesy: you'll keep attracting more of the same and that diversity you're paying lip-service to will never grow because there isn't enough there. I've certainly seen the fights over it. Podficcers debating whether or not it's better to stay away from AO3 until they accommodate us, or if we should try to get everyone on board so we'll have more of a presence, more of a voice to be heard. I'm not even going to touch fans outside of podficcers, though I've seen a lot of other fans who have said they don't fit in on AO3 too (in fact, there have been a handful of board members whose election platforms were on trying to better accommodate for diversity in the userbase).

And that's another thing that I try not to think about too much: even volunteering for AO3/OTW to help make those changes, seems to have little effect? At least 2 board members have been podficcers that I know of, and as I said above, board members have pushed to be more inclusive of non-English languages, or anime fans, etc. and they've had limited success. I know quite a few podficcers that have volunteered. I honestly don't know how much more we can do?

All of this sounds very down on AO3, and I guess I am when I think about it, which is why I mostly try to avoid it. I do genuinely appreciate AO3 and all that it's given us. I use the site a lot and I can't even imagine what fandom would look like right now without it. Most days I can pretend not to notice that podficcers (and fanartist, crafters, vidders, etc.) are second class citizens on the site. I struggle with tags to find the fanart I want. I submit my support requests hoping that it'll get better soon. I even think a lot about volunteering again, now that I'm graduating and will hopefully have more time.

I certainly haven't given up on AO3, and do encourage people to use it. But I can't lie to myself and say that they do a good job supporting podfic.

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Podfic Entries on Fanlore

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