podficmeta | Fandom Secrets

Fandom Secrets

Over at LJ's

fandomsecrets someone made a podfic secret (thanks to

brimtoast for the link).

I'm really curious as to what others in the podfic community think of it, it's had some very mixed reactions in the thread I linked to above.

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Funny, I was JUST thinking about that this morning. I think because I was reading the Merlin metafic where Arthur is a BNF and Merlin is his beta (a great story!) and it made me think about writing metafic that included podfic or revolved around it some way, but it also made me reflect on all the stuff that's glossed over in the story an in most meta stories like that; somehow my brain landed on this issue of masturbating to fanworks.

ANYWAY. I notice that in your answer in that thread you say, but ppl comment saying 'I'll be in my bunk' a lot, is that really different? I wanted to touch on that because yeah, I do think it's different. The difference, to me, is not about the fanwork type (though there ARE differences due to the fanwork type), it's that a comment like 'I'll be in my bunk' is highly ritualised. It was already a euphemistic way to say what is meant from the start, but now that it has become a ritual answer it is even MORE devoid of its literal sense. You don't know when someone types it if they mean they were slightly aroused, intellectually turned on, if they has a physiological response or not, and certainly you don't know if they LITERALLY mean that they're going to masturbate to that fanwork now, or in the future.

I think this is a crucial difference between the secret (very literal, precise) and the ritual comment to a fic.

Now, I also think that it can be creepy - there is no way to control the reception of our utterances, right? And surely some people who record podfic have personal boundaries which are such that they would NOT like to know this as precisely from their audiences. Hence the reason I have never told anyone about it precisely myself. :)

But I do think we could stand to have a wider conversation about fanworks and masturbatory habits of fans in general - well, the people who want to have it, anyway - because I for one wouldn't mind feedback with that level of detail, for example, and because I think there's ways to build up community expectations regarding explicit comments (when to give them, how to express one's boundaries, etc).

Does that make any sense?

I guess, for me, the difference between someone being aroused enough by something to want to act on it and someone actually acting on it is kind of moot, you still got to someone on that level. And even if someone doesn’t act on the arousal as they’re consuming your fanwork (or right after they consume) chances are they’re going to act on it at some point (if they masturbate). Because no one masturbates in a vacuum and if something you did worked for them at that basic level, your work is likely to get incorporated into their fantasies next time they masturbate.

I’m not really in the habit of leaving the kind of comment I mentioned (for some reason I’m ok with talking about, and even celebrating, other’s sexuality but I have a lot of issues talking about my own :-/) but I would assume that those who do are using it because they did find the fanwork in question arousing in some way. So, even though there is a ritual behind the phrases, they are representing a similar reaction (with likely, eventual, if not immediate, follow through).

I think a lot of the immediate reactions to this secret, especially the reactions of creepiness and the like, are brought on by the way it’s presented rather than the notion that people get off on fanworks (although that’s what a lot of people are focusing on). The fact that the secret writer didn’t use a euphemism when describing her activities, the fact that she named names, the fact that this information was presented as a secret (which are often designed to be provoking but also imply that there’s a sense of shame attached to them) catches a lot of people off guard.

I made a post a few weeks ago about the sexiness of podfics and while acting on that sexiness was brought up, there certainly wasn’t this kind of reaction. But people couched what they said and how they said it. It was meta, not a secret.

And surely some people who record podfic have personal boundaries which are such that they would NOT like to know this as precisely from their audiences.
And, I can get someone being more comfortable not being told about it. However, I think it’s a bit much for someone to be surprised, to have never considered that someone might feel this way about your (NC-17) fanwork (all bets are off for fluffy gen fanworks).

I mean, I’m someone who is definitely not in fandom for the porn. Most fics I don’t actually find sexy in this way; the enjoyment I get out of reading them has nothing to do with finding them arousing. That said, I’ve been in fandom long enough (read: more than a month), seen enough people talk about how hot they find certain fanworks, to realize that that’s not the case for everyone. I get very little, personally, out of PWPs but they’re still a very popular form of fic, people enjoy them. I’ve read more than a few author’s notes attributing inspiration for their fic/a scene from their fic to watching porn (sometimes with links!). I’ve had people on my flist give or ask for porn recommendations. And, in the end, so much of fandom is NC-17 rated.

Can you really spend any time in fandom, consuming and recording NC-17 fic and still be surprised that some people get sexual gratification out of fandom?

But I do think we could stand to have a wider conversation about fanworks and masturbatory habits of fans in general - well, the people who want to have it, anyway - because I for one wouldn't mind feedback with that level of detail, for example, and because I think there's ways to build up community expectations regarding explicit comments (when to give them, how to express one's boundaries, etc).
I would so be there for that discussion! (despite my person issues in discussing such things as applied to me.) Hell, I’m even tempted to initiate it....

I think some people (maybe even most) mean they literally found it arousing, but I do think it has become such a stock response that it doesn't necessarily mean arousal at all, but just "this was really good". Like, when people say LOL they usually aren't literally laughing out loud. Just amused.

idk. I don't say things like "I'll be in my bunk" but I do say things like "that was hot" without meaning I found it arousing.

idk. I don't say things like "I'll be in my bunk" but I do say things like "that was hot" without meaning I found it arousing.
Hmm, that's interesting to me. Because, for me, I would have to find something arousing on some level before I would call something hot.

Like, yeah, you might not literally be laughing when you type LOL, but you are conveying that you found it amusing, even if it's not so extreme as to cause you to laugh out loud. But you wouldn't say LOL in response to something that wasn't humourous at all, would you?

I don't know, maybe I'm just too literal of a person.

Well, I don't tend to get phsycially aroused from reading, but I like the word hot to describe well-written, interesting sex that I find appealing. So I don't really see it as any different to me saying I found a fic funny, but I never laughed or smiled. Just because it didn't provoke a physical response doesn't mean I didn't appreciate it.

Anyway, I also meant to add before that I actually was in fandom for many years before I realised people actually jerked off reading fanfic, so!

"I think a lot of the immediate reactions to this secret, especially the reactions of creepiness and the like, are brought on by the way it’s presented rather than the notion that people get off on fanworks "

Well yes, that's kind of what I meant with the ritual thing; most fen don't ignore that fanworks (explicit ones at least) have a sexually arousing / erotic impact on their audience. They just are content to ignore *precisely* what that entails. Hence how repeated use makes it okay to have rote answers to express the hotness of a work, versus how not okay it is (or at least, it doesn't meet the consensus) to give precise details of your sex life in reaction to a work to your audience or to the creator of the work.

There's a personal boundary there at play which means both are different things; they themselves have different impacts, in that a writer or podficcer can very well be vaguely pleased to think their work was hot to the audience, and yet feel very uncomfortable knowing that Suzie rubbed off yesterday evening to that same fanwork.

Anyway, I'm just reiterating things we both know. *g*

I have an LJ friend to masturbates a LOT and talks about it super frankly, which I think is great; she is the only person I've met in my fandom experience who does/will be honest and say, in her reaction to a fanwork, that she wanked to it / it lead her to orgasm, or say how *many* orgasms it was worth. *g* (with the people who she knows are okay with that - so, her friends; there are still boundaries there). I think it's great. :)

I don't particularly want to know the details of readers' or listeners' masturbatory habits but I figure if I've written or read something shippy, whether it's explicit sex or not, *someone's* going to be getting off to it somewhere. As long as they don't come into my journal to tell me about it, I don't really care. And I definitely would be put off by someone saying that *I* was arousing them, as opposed to the fanwork I created, since that is awfully close to creepy stalker territory for me.

In the thread I linked to, I made mention of people leaving comments along the line of "I'll be in my bunk" or using icons saying "you owe me a new pair of panties". How do you feel about people leaving that kind of feedback?

It doesn't bother me if it's in the comment thread where the fanwork was posted, or some other feedback thread. As long as they don't start obsessing about *me* versus the *work* it's okay, IMO.

Huh, I can see where it might be creepy to say they were hot for you based on your writings (since that doesn't involve you, but your things), but … people (in a general sense, beyond just fandom) seem to be aroused by physical attributes of others, like appearance or scent or voice.

I don't see why it should be different in a fannish context than a theatrical one? I mean, if I'm all, "Ooh, Avery Brooks could read me anything," I'm not sure why I shouldn't also say, "FayJay could read me anything."?

Personally I'd be more shocked if people *weren't* masturbating to a wide and varied collection of fanworks.

Masturbation is still all icky and gross though right? God forbid *girls* should be doing it, let alone *admit* that they're doing it:O

Ha, I love this answer. I mean, I get the other side of it. I grew up in a Catholic household where, really, sex was just for procreating, masturbation was never even mentioned. Old habits die hard and I still squirm a little when trying to talk about these things but really, we shouldn't.

I love how fandom is so much more open about this kind of thing, how we do discuss these things (even if it's still a little awkward for some).

And, actually, I just tweeted about how it's... notable that the masturbation euphemisms being used in this conversation mostly imply male masturbation. :-/

Eh. It's just a little sad how a lot of the knee jerk reactions in that post were along the lines of how creepy and gross it was, how the secret poster should have just kept it to themselves.

Old habits die hard and I still squirm a little when trying to talk about these things but really, we shouldn't.

I think most of us grew up with that whole silence on female masturbation (shame isn't just for catholics!) but look at the environment we're in now! Surely it should be different and easier to admit that it happens? But you're right, we at least now have a space where we *can* discuss it even if it *is* still a little weird and awkward.

Anatsuno: I really want that conversation to take place.

Personally, I sort of want to see more things like this. But, like you sort of said Paraka, as meta or conversation, not as a secret. (I'd like to believe those saying it was creepy aren't really podfic-listeners, because to me it seems inevitable to be walking along and be suddenly hit by the ridiculously hot podfic in my ears. Telling the podficcer that shouldn't be a *bad* thing. It's at least a compliment to their method of storytelling.)

On the 'be in my bunk' response. I've always thought of the ritual of that phrase as being helpful to hidden honesty. You can say owe me panties/be in my bunk and have it be interpreted as an euphemistic fandom joke. Which can be the cover for the truth. I've always thought of it like that: Jayne was telling the truth when he said it, so why can't that responder be telling the truth as well? No one says I'll be in my bunk to podfic because feedback is non-immediate, so it doesn't work. If there was another, standard phrase which worked, maybe that would pop up in feedback.

But, it does feel more intimate/invasive to say, oh Podficcer X, your voice is sexy, I'll be in my bunk with this Wincest you just uploaded, than to say I'll be in my bunk after having read the entirety of a fic. The podfic option sounds like more of a plan of action. And the fic is just Sam and Dean; the podfic is Sam and Dean and Podficcer X.

Also, because I pick fics to podfic that I adore and don't have any even slight qualms about, I occasionally end up being turned on listening to my own voice while editing. Now that's a weird experience. Not all the time, and definitely some stories more readily than others. I've been sporadically working on an anthology of blowjob fics*, and some of them aren't sexy at all, and others are completely distracting. It feels very narcissistic.

*side note: I'm really nervous about actually posting the blowjob anthology. It seems so indulgent, and silly, and like I'm putting a huge porny label on myself. Also, that it'll turn into a monologue, because there is a critical mass of blowjobs and I've passed it. Would I be comfortable if someone said they got off to it? Probably I'd be pretty pleased. It is mostly just porn, made interesting by contexts, and presumably people who like porny podfics will download an anthology so honestly named. What makes me uncomfortable is people having a list of what I get off to, or thinking they have that list. Like this is a revelation of my psyche or something, like how you can pull an author's preoccupations out of their fiction if they've written enough.

That's the part of podficcing/writing PWP which unnerves me. If people responded to a podfic with be in my bunk/another euphemism or lack thereof, awesome. If someone responded with 'oh, my goodness, you really like Sheppard getting choked, don't you?', *that* would freak me out.

Personally, I sort of want to see more things like this. But, like you sort of said Paraka, as meta or conversation, not as a secret.
Unfortunately a lot of meta has its origins in wanky comments but it’s what we do after that counts.

(I'd like to believe those saying it was creepy aren't really podfic-listeners
I hope so too and I think that makes sense. I can’t tell you how many discussions on podfic I’ve come across, by people not into podfic, describing the entire idea of podfic as creepy. I’ve metaed about it before. I don’t think these things are unrelated either. People don’t necessarily find podfic creepy, it’s porny podfic that they’re bothered by.

Hmmm, there’s more I could say on this, but I think that’s an essay all on its own. Maybe another time.

because to me it seems inevitable to be walking along and be suddenly hit by the ridiculously hot podfic in my ears.

Maybe part of that, especially if it’s coming from within podficcing fandom, is how people consume podfic? Like, if you’re someone who listens as you’re going to bed/waking up, getting hit by the sexy times and taking care of business can be a great end/beginning to your day so it’s fine. Others listen to podfic in public though, while at work (like me!), on the bus, while shopping, etc. So maybe they build a deliberate wall for themselves to keep the sexiness of it all to a minimum? Getting turned on and wanting to something about it isn't really comfortable if your stuck in a public place.

Jayne was telling the truth when he said it, so why can't that responder be telling the truth as well?
This is random, and unrelated to the general meta; but until I made this post I didn’t realize that “I’ll be in my bunk” was a fandom phrase (thank you Fanlore!). I thought it was just a general phrase, adapted by fandom (I never got through all of Firefly so didn’t know it was said on the show).

No one says I'll be in my bunk to podfic because feedback is non-immediate, so it doesn't work.
The non-immediate point is a good one.

I wonder too, if it doesn’t have some link to the wider problems with feedback in podfic. That there still isn’t a ton of feedback and a lot of people are left unsure of what to say at all let alone what’s appropriate. Like, should you only leave technical feedback? Is it insulting to talk about someone’s voice/accent? Is "Oh, I love this fic!" (or, in this case "That story is so hot!") true feedback?

And all of this is mixed up in the conflict of what feedback should go to the podficcer and what should go to the author. If I find a podfic sexy, is it because of the voice? Or the content? For most, it’s probably a mix of the two but people aren’t sure who to tell, or how to say it. Fic does have rituals set up for describing things as hot and awesome so I could see some people defaulting to leaving the fic feedback just because it’s easier.

If there was another, standard phrase which worked, maybe that would pop up in feedback.
Ohh, do you think we could make one up? I… don’t have any suggestions at the moment but it would be awesome to have something like that. :D

But, it does feel more intimate/invasive to say, oh Podficcer X, your voice is sexy, I'll be in my bunk with this Wincest you just uploaded, than to say I'll be in my bunk after having read the entirety of a fic. The podfic option sounds like more of a plan of action. And the fic is just Sam and Dean; the podfic is Sam and Dean and Podficcer X.

Fayjay said something in the meta I linked to above that really stuck with me: that some people (obviously YMMV) are weirded out by podfic due to the queerness of it.

Most slash fans are straight women. With (slash) fic, they’re able to ignore the fact that what they’re getting turned on by was created by a woman. They just look at the cocks in action and get carried away. But with podfic, you can’t ignore that a woman is involved in what is getting you off.

I find it pretty telling (and I’m surprised that there hasn’t been more discussion about this) that the secret added that line, where the secret teller imagined that the podficcer was a man. That way the secret teller was actually masturbating to a man reading about two men getting off together, no woman involved, nothing to threaten her heterosexuality.

I don’t like that theory, but that’s because it strikes me as kind of homophobic, not because I don’t believe it’s true. And, I don't think this is why everyone would have problems with this, just one possible reason.

You know, I actually find it hard to wrap my head around the idea that an author is less present in a story than a podficcer is in a podfic. Obviously many people think this way but it’s not something that occurs to me naturally and it took me a lot of thinking to (maybe?) see how people feel this way.

Maybe because voice is a tool that people use during sex (but the brain is a woman’s biggest sex organ). Maybe it’s easier to ignore the woman behind the curtain when you can’t see or hear her. But for me, the author is always present when I read fic, just as the podficcer is present when I listen to podfic. I can’t ignore her. Just like I can’t ignore the writers of a show when I watch it (and I know not everyone is like that).

But fans still objectify fic authors, bring the author’s into their response to their art. So many people will leave comments specific to authors, rather than fics. People will rec an author’s on rec lists, rather than their fics or will leave comments saying they love an author’s brain. And, getting into the more extreme comments (done in humour, obviously) you have readers asking to marry an author (or their brain) and/or have their internet babies. That is making the author part of your commentary on their art. And, especially in the case of internet marriage proposals and internet baby propositions, that's objectifying the author (to a certain degree).

Which, to me, is pretty analogous to anything you’d say to a podficcer and how much you enjoyed their works.

Above,

zvi said:
I don't see why it should be different in a fannish context than a theatrical one? I mean, if I'm all, "Ooh, Avery Brooks could read me anything," I'm not sure why I shouldn't also say, "FayJay could read me anything."?

Which, is a good point and got me thinking about fannish behaviours. So many fans, if they love a character, will also start to love the actor that portrays that character. Liking Dean, for many fans, has them searching out all of Jensen’s other works. And hell, the J2 fandom is pretty booming. It’s habit for a lot of fans to incorporate the creator in the appreciation of the art. Not to mention, there’s a lot of objectification of the things we love in fandom.

So is it really that weird that fans go from "I really like this podfic" to "I really like this podficcer" (or "I find this podfic sexy" to "I find this podficcer sexy").

I'm really nervous about actually posting the blowjob anthology... What makes me uncomfortable is people having a list of what I get off to, or thinking they have that list. Like this is a revelation of my psyche or something, like how you can pull an author's preoccupations out of their fiction if they've written enough.
I totally get that. I have this big reluctance to post recs to things I find hot, or to podfic things I find hot. But, in my case in particular, it’s kind of ridiculous to do so. I’m someone who doesn’t actually find most of the sex scenes in fic sexy. And since my uncomfortableness only applies to things I actually find sexy, I rec and even record a bunch of fics that are very NC-17 and probably do it for others. So, really, to the average person following my recs/podfic, how are they going to be able to tell the difference between the things I think are hot and the things that I enjoy for other reasons, unless I make a point to say so? People probably already have such conclusions drawn, if they have any desire to such a thing, based on the things I don’t specifically find sexy.

I'm kind of tempted to add "record something you find hot" as a prompt for

podfic_bingo now...

Edited (html fail!) 2011-01-22 17:27 (UTC)

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