podficmeta | Fear of discovery

Fear of discovery

I feel like we should talk about this, in the light of yesterday's Last.fm scare and aftermath

I've thought a lot about fear of discovery, since one of my very earliest experiences in the world of podfic was seeing my favorite reader take down all her work because she was feeling too much anxiety at the thought of it being found.

My opinion, which seems not to be shared by many people, is that voices are not distinct enough for this to be a genuinely scary prospect (although if some people have extremely uncommon accents or voices, this would apply less to them). I feel like someone could discover my podfic, listen to it, bring it to me saying "IS THIS YOU?" (Actually, I have a lot of trouble imagining that step. I'm guessing they'd be too uncertain and embarrassed-if-they-were-wrong to actually ask) and I could say, "Nope, definitely not me. They do sound a lot like me, though! Weird." And nobody would argue or push the matter further.

And so I think that even though podfic feels more personally identifying because it's my voice, the fear of discovery is more a paranoia than a reasonable fear. I've heard people say podfic readers sounded "just like" their best friend, high school librarian, another reader they heard on a different site (this one was directed to me, and I never read for that site, so I know the person I sound "just like" was not actually myself). For most of us, there are people out there in the world with voices similar enough to ours to give us plenty of plausible deniability.

What do other people think?

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I am ambivalent about this - I don't feel worried but it's more because I'm very open and out about slash, porn, fic and podfic, than because I think my voice is not actually /that/ recognizable. I think probably my accent would be? It tends to be 'unique' (though maybe all accents are and it's a folly to say that)... I don't know.

I mostly wanted to comment quickly to say that this post would benefit from a link to this post on the last.fm thing; otherwise it might seem obscure to some of the readership here! :D

Oh, and maybe even better, here's a clearer statement about it, with a plea to be careful. :)

Good point on both of these, thanks! I'll edit them in.

*clicks link* Oh my god, the stupidity. DDD: And no, I am not talking about the scrobblers. Even after they're told that no one has been reuploading their podfic, they're still throwing a shitfit that their usernames are on last.fm!? I mean, wtaf? It's not their real name, it's their usernames. So how is having it on last.fm any different than having it anywhere else. If I say in my journal "pandarus recorded blah blah blah", it's up there on google for anyone to find, because I don't block google. People are, as usual, freaking out over nothing.

Well, pandarus said she was calming down once she got the fact that it was only metadata over there, so.

And even though metadata "is always out there" and the internet is googlable, I don't think it's completely unwarranted for people to get worried when they realize that some data is hanging about in places that are not fandom spaces. To google "pandarus", you have to know her name. If the discourse about her podficcing is constrained to fandom spaces, people not-in-fandom have less chances to come across her name to begin with. But if her name is something you can stumble onto in places that have nothing to do with fandom, then it's a piece of data (added to track /titles/ on last.fm, it seems? which are possibly even more 'damning') that anyone can now find /and/ consequently use to google more.

As always, the fact that something is already possible theoretically in a small measure is not enough to dismiss, imo, the worries of people who don't want to see this measure grow exponentially. A multiplied risk is a greater risk, after all (odds are measure in percentages for a reason), and not everyone wants to be at increased risk of being discovered, not when they live in countries where fictional underage sex or the depiction of homosexual relationships is illegal, and not when they might well be kindergarten teachers in Minnesota.

Like I said, personally I'm not really worried (but sometimes I think my not being worried is more a symptom of my blitheness than of my realism). But I don't think it's silly to be worried in some way.

Even if you think 'it was already like that, you just didn't know it' - well, it's okay for people to become worried when they come into possession/awareness of more information about a situation. Perhaps some of them will change the way they weigh the risk of podficcing, who knows. In which case, despite my own opinions on the issue, I'll be glad that they were able to make a more informed decision. *shrugs*

I think people generally have a tendency to want to control information in unrealistic ways, and I think it makes them do all sorts of unreasonable things sometimes, either because they get overwrought about new knowledge or because they keep having to balance their expectations of privacy against reality.

Fandom is sadly very good at pretending (and making people believe) that it's possible to be out there, out here, and never have any data about your very existence and activity make it out into the world at large. I wish fandom in general was different about it because it strikes me as a dangerous belief.

But I don't let my wish blind me to the legitimate worries and shocks that people sometimes receive when things like this happen - I'm not without empathy for that situation. Maybe you don't feel it partly because you don't podfic, but like Jinjur explains so well in the post of hers I linked to yesterday, podficcing is an activity from the body, it feels even more closely related to who you are in real space than writing does. It feels more intimate, more exposing, more fraught. So to be more sensitive about it? Doesn't seem so odd to me. So. Yeah. Perhaps I'll be upset if people are disproportionately hysterical about it in a week, but in the meantime, the shocked reaction doesn't faze me much.

Except, why would someone not in fandom listen to podfic in the first place, even if it is listed on last.fm? Maybe they're curious about this thing on someone's playlist, so they google it, but then they find it's a recording of a fanfic, and not some new band they've never heard of, so...if they're not interested in fanfic, that's where it would stop.

This actually reminds me of a situation that happened to me that I'd forgotten.

I started to get a few more downloads than I was expecting on one of my podfics, and I figured out that they were coming from filestube.com. Turns out that the name of my podfic (I mean, the title of the story the author had written) was the same as the name of an album that people were searching for, so I'm pretty sure what was happening is that people were searching for the album, finding a link to an mp3 file with that name, and downloading it. So I imagine they *did* listen to the beginning and were quite surprised!

It made me uncomfortable briefly, but I just ended up renaming the file to put PODFIC right there in the name, and even though people still sometimes DL it from there and probably still get a shock when they listen, I figure that they'll figure out pretty fast that it's not what they want, and either turn it off or continue listening by choice. And as long as they're listening by choice, I don't mind if they found it by accident or what.

It helps, though, that the podfic in question isn't NC-17. I think readers always feel more vulnerable about their NC-17 work getting out. Even though that's sometimes some of your best work that you're most proud of, it's also the stuff that lots of people outside fandom wouldn't understand and would be very unpleasantly judgmental of if they knew.

Hmm, yeah, I hadn't thought of that. I was thinking most of the time googling for reader + title would get a page about the story (rec page, podfic archive, reader's journal or website) rather than directly to the file, but if the filename (or info on a hosting site such as MU that allows you to put in a description) includes both reader name and title, some searches might go directly there.

Nice.

Well, I'm assuming that this:

Oh my god, the stupidity. DDD: And no, I am not talking about the scrobblers. Even after they're told that no one has been reuploading their podfic, they're still throwing a shitfit that their usernames are on last.fm!? I mean, wtaf? It's not their real name, it's their usernames.

wasn't actually about me, despite the fact that you stuck my name in there for your example, because I didn't throw a shitfit about my username being there once I knew that the file itself wasn't uploaded. I pretty much said 'Oh thank fuck for that' and told those people who offered that it was okay, they didn't need to unscrobble the metadata, or whatever, so long as the actual files weren't being uploaded.

As to why someone not in fandom would randomly happen across podfic if it were uploaded to Last.fm: the way that I've used Last.fm in the past (on the simple free trial basis) is that you type in the name of a musician you like, eg Ella Fitzgerald, and then it creates "Ella Fitzgerald Radio" for you via some elaborate system of algorithms. PRECISELY IN ORDER to introduce you to new performers you've never heard of, and hadn't explicitly sought out.

So I would be merrily working away, whilst Last.fm created its own continuous playlist of musicians I'd never heard of, but which it thought I might like because it felt that they were measurably similar to something I'd listened to before. It worked very well at piquing my interest in new artists, and sending me off to download things from iTunes. (Since I've only used Last.fm in this capacity, using my work computer, all this scrobbling-data-from-your-iTunes business had never cropped up. That, along with the button that says "download for free" implied that there was an actual file there. Sorry that this makes me stupid in your eyes, but there we are, such is life.)

So, no, one wouldn't have to go actively looking for podfic on Last.fm; if these podfic files themselves had actually been uploaded one would simply have to have selected 'Disney Highschool Musical' in the expectation of hearing stuff that was similar to the artist one likes already, and after a long enough interval of appropriately cheesy songs, one would be entirely likely to suddenly find the computer playing an Eos Rose podfic - as Highschool Musical is currently listed as having a Very High Similarity to Eos Rose's podfics. FayJay podfics apparently have a medium similarity to Kris Allen, whoever the hell he is, according to the Last.fm elves. Go figure.

THAT'S why this was scary for me. Because if the files had been uploaded to this mainstream, non-fannish space, they wouldn't be sitting gathering dust until a fannish person sought them out; they'd be at risk of being added into somebody's playlist on the whim of the computer.

That strikes me as considerably less discreet or discrete than having one's podfic archived at a fannish website that only people in fandom are going to be seeking out.

FayJay podfics apparently have a medium similarity to Kris Allen, whoever the hell he is
Kris is the guy that won American Idol the year Adam Lambert was on it. He's also the "Kr" part of "Kradam". You probably have a similarity to him because we've podficed some of the same authors (or have authors in common with high similarity) and my podfics are over there.

With things like Last.fm, people who are in RPF probably have a much higher risk of being added to something since the people in question are probably on there. At least if you're in musical RPF like bandom or AI. Hell, even a lot of movies and TV shows have sound tracks so if someone searches for those they'd be more likely to stumble on podfic.

This is a really insensitive reply. I say this as a reader who did not have a "shitfit" when I heard about this and found metadata about me on last.fm. While it is not something that I personally am overly worried about, I can understand that there are many legitimate reasons why someone would be concerned over this. One such reason (and the reason why I've been signal boosting the issue) is that there are a lot of people who don't actually think about the many risks that being on the internet can present. I think about my online presence all the time, regardless of whether that presence is in a "private" environment or not, because I don't actually trust any site to maintain my privacy. That's my own personal choice, though, and there are many people who don't think about their internet privacy (or lack thereof) because they've grown up in (or gotten used to) an environment where internet interaction is extremely casual. In addition, despite the changing environment, many people still think of fandom as an "underground" thing and they're not used to having fannish things spotlighted in mainstream media. And, as

pandarus said above, there's a difference between putting yourself out there in fannish spaces versus mainstream spaces.

Just because this isn't something you would be freaked out over (and this doesn't actually affect you personally anyway) doesn't mean you should dismiss other people's concerns.

I think it also probably depends on how open you are about your life in your journal. Like, if someone suspected they knew you, they'd click on your LJ and see that it's empty, but other people might have other clues -- where they live, posts about their life and what they do, so if someone suspects it can pretty much confirm that. However, I don't know how probable it is that someone you know will DL a podfic you recorded and recognize your voice to begin with. It's a small comfort that if someone did do that, then the person who recognized them would probably be someone whose into fandom to begin with -- like, I assume the chances of your mom downloading random American Idol podfic isn't that high. But I can also visualize situations where that would be ore problematic, so... I do not know :-)

ETA: okay, and I just clicked the link to the last.fm thing, so forget that last part about needing to be in fandom to get to podfic :/

Edited 2010-10-20 13:54 (UTC)

Actually, this is making me think about how I mention my grad program sometimes in the readers notes parts of my podfic, and how maybe I should go back through and edit that out. Because you're right, if someone thought it was me, the first thing they'd do is track it back and look for evidence to confirm that. And while voice alone wouldn't do it, other info could. I'm going to go through and double-check that now, actually.

The only way I could see it being a problem is if someone has a lot of already identifying info on their journal and someone puts that together with the voice. But...if they already have enough stuff on their journal to identify them and are afraid of being found out, then they already need to make a change and lock stuff down, totally unrelated to any last.fm business.

If it's just the voice itself, though, I doubt any podfic reader has a voice so unique that it could only be them without any other context.

Yeah, I guess what makes podfic different from fanfic is that someone's voice would be more likely to get a person-who-knows-them-in-RL's attention (in an "I know someone who sounds kinda like that") way, and if it got their attention enough, they could go to that person's journal and confirm. I think most of the time, if someone googled a person's fandom username with enough dedication, they could find enough hints about where the person lived, when the person's birthday was, etc., that they could confirm their suspicions, or at least make them a lot more solid.

It would take a decent amount of effort on the part of the person investigating, but I see how it is possible, even for me, to get discovered for podfic, not *solely* through voice, but through a combination of voice and other small clues.

I've been dealing with that by trying to remove identifying info from my journal, though. And maybe I could even imagine, if I got a really sensitive job (politics or whatever, as someone below mentioned), orphaning my podfic and locking down my journal so there was no username to track back from it. Maybe I would get an entirely new journal (if I felt the need for one) that had no association with my podfic, so I could still participate in fandom but not be connected to the podfic. What I would not do is take down the podfic, because I still very firmly believe that nobody could place me based on that alone. (And I have very strong feelings against people taking down things they have contributed publicly to fandom, for any reason less than a terrible life emergency).

Yeah, I guess what makes podfic different from fanfic is that someone's voice would be more likely to get a person-who-knows-them-in-RL's attention (in an "I know someone who sounds kinda like that") way, and if it got their attention enough, they could go to that person's journal and confirm. I think most of the time, if someone googled a person's fandom username with enough dedication, they could find enough hints about where the person lived, when the person's birthday was, etc., that they could confirm their suspicions, or at least make them a lot more solid.

It would take a decent amount of effort on the part of the person investigating, but I see how it is possible, even for me, to get discovered for podfic, not *solely* through voice, but through a combination of voice and other small clues.

EXACTLY.

And, you know, who I am in RL is very much the same as who I am online - just, online it includes some NC17 bits in the fanfic I read and write - and that's the stuff that could totally bite me in the ass. But my interests, my writing style, my speech patterns, my humour - I mean, IF somebody were at the point of thinking "Shit, that sounds like Fay! And this is the kind of thing she would totally do..." and started playing detective, I think I'd be buggered. Everyone knows I love to read, write, act etc, and that I'm an internet geek, and podficcing is a combination of these things. Hell, I do this kind of reading-aloud-to-groups performance fairly often in the course of my job (just last week I was reading 'The Not So Jolly Roger' with great fervour and much brandishing-of-invisible-cutlasses and "ARRRRRR"-ing. It was awesome).

My RL/Fannish identity situation isn't some kind of Clark Kent/Superman thing. In RL, I'm pretty much exactly the same, only in technicolour (which in my case means looking like the bastard-child-of-Mary-Poppins-and-Doctor-Who, wielding parasols and colour-co-ordinated fans and singing absent-mindedly to jazz standards. Also, acting in the local community theatre productions in a variety of capacities - currently in a production which involves wearing nothing but a bath towel. Low profile just ain't part of my mission statement).

I guess one solution in a situation like this would be to post podfic under a separate name and never associate it with one's other username. But that, I think, would feel frustrating, because it's hard to be a fragmented person like that. Like, I've actually been actively trying to bring my fandom life and personal life together, talk to non-fandom friends more about fandom stuff, because if I leave out all the fandom stuff from my stories, my life starts to sounds kind of dull, like I have no hobbies or passions that I spend my free time on. And I'm proud of fandom, and of the ways I spend time in it, and I want to share that with (certain) people.

On the other hand, I do want to try to maintain that boundary where work is concerned. So it becomes a tricky line. I actually do have a separate journal for my podfic, and I think it's harder to trace that back to my RL identity... but then, on the other hand, it's not terribly hard to trace that journal back to this one, if someone were trying, and from this one to my RL identity is... still not totally easy, but slightly easier. I don't really know what to do about that in the end, except keep as many levels of separation as I can without feeling too constrained by them and keep a close eye on them so that if I did need to adjust, I would be able to do that.

I think you have a good point about how you could still deny it's you if someone tried to confront you about podfic. I've listened to my podfics, and I've listened to recordings of myself simply talking and they actually sound surprisingly different. I found the same thing about you when you responded to my email verbally. I could pick up hints of your podfic style but it wasn't the same overall. Same when I met

anatsuno,

revolutionaryjo and

lunate8. I didn't immediately connect their speaking voice with their podficing voice and I knew they who they were.

That said, I suppose I might be slightly more vulnerable to this, since I actually volunteer for Voice Print so my "reading voice" is publicly out there under my real name too. I guess, for me, I just think that the chances of someone caring enough to try and draw those connections are pretty slim. Or even if they were drawn, if the people around me would care. I remember when I first got into fandom my mom asked to see one of my vids (she didn't finish watching it though because it was a Queer as Folk vid and it made her uncomfortable. She asked me if I was making porn *rolls eyes*). I'll talk to my boss and coworkers about my podfic (well, we call them audiobooks but still).

So, I've probably blown any plausible deniabilty options. Still, I would totally defend what I do and if someone wanted to give me trouble for it in RL then I would take the hits and move on. That said, I'm very lucky to be able to do this. My job isn't as sensitive to this, I live in a culture that won't judge me too much for what I do. I know not everyone is as lucky.

I was talking with

choose2live last night about what I feel my risks are of being outed. Honestly, I think the chances of someone in my RL discovering that I'm

paraka online are fairly slim. Although I don't make a huge effort to hide my fannishness so I guess it's more a case of, they'd have to care to look. There's probably more danger of someone online outing me (I would like to think no one would do that but I know too many people that it has happened to, to think it never happens). Right now if you Google my names, they're not connected in any way. In fact, if you Google my real name, you don't get me at all (or, I gave up after page 50 of the search I figure most people will give up sooner). I would be a lot more nervous if the two were connected (if I try googling both my names at the same time, it changes "paraka" to "parka" :P).

I've heard people say podfic readers sounded "just like" their best friend, high school librarian
Heh, I recognize those examples. In fact, I'm one of them, right?
Did I ever tell you about the time I was on the phone with a coworker and I thought they might be you? This was before we really knew each other but I was on the phone with one of my account reps and was so distracted the entire call thinking they sounded like you. As soon as I got off the phone I jumped over to your journal to see if you listed where you live in your profile. Obviously, the coworker wasn't you but it was a totally weird experience.

I IDed

general_jinjur in the WisCon lobby from her voice. Well, that was my first clue, and then the eyeshadow.

(IOW, nothing meaningful to contribute.)

There's actually another podfic reader who has a voice that's so like

general_jinjur that I really don't think I could distinguish between the two, if one of their podfics were played for me without context.

Which actually ties in really well to what I think is coming to be the conclusion of this discussion. Voice alone isn't enough to identify someone with certainty, but it's certainly a good first clue, and it can motivate people to seek other clues that *can* confirm identity. So it's not dangerous on its own, but it's sort of like... a gateway to danger. If, of course, one is in a situation where being identified by RL people is considered dangerous, which some, but not all, podficcers are.

So, I'm totally new to this realm and have only begun to think about these issues as a podficcer. But I've been having fascinating discussions with

paraka on these topics, and so want to share my two cents.

In general, I completely agree with what you're saying here. Odds of someone actually connecting podfic to one's RL self, absent any other identifying information, are pretty damn slim and there's definitely plausible deniability. There may be exceptions, but overall, yeah.

Also, I agree with what

paraka says about one's "reading voice" often being different from one's speaking voice. This is definitely true with me - part of the reason I want to podfic is I want to train myself to speak more clearly; more slowly with better enunciation. At least right now, I'm definitely reading differently than I speak in conversation. And while this may not be as true of others, I bet it's true more often than not.

Now that I'm done with the head-nodding part, I think one's fear of discovery is always going to be highly subjective, based on whatever situations they're in IRL. Personally, I'm not really in a position where discovery would be that harmful. Yeah, it'd be really awkward if my mom heard it, but beyond that... it won't hurt me professionally, or personally beyond it being a bit awkward. Therefore, my fear level is pretty low. But I'm not a kindergarten teacher in Minnesota. (ack, tonight at dinner family friends were urging me to get into politics. If I did THAT, I'd want to disappear this stuff. Good thing I'm not planning on it. :p)

However, I think there needs to be some consideration as to the responsibility of the reader. I think this is an excellent point and very true:

Fandom is sadly very good at pretending (and making people believe) that it's possible to be out there, out here, and never have any data about your very existence and activity make it out into the world at large.

As someone who is voluntarily putting my own voice on the internet reading porn, I'm the one who's ultimately responsible for the risk. There's a certain level of courtesy I should be able to expect from fellow fans, but that's not something I can bank on. And as someone familiar enough with the internet to be participating in fandom, I'm most likely aware that it's extremely easy for one's work to be duplicated, referenced, linked to, and otherwise taken out of my control. That's pretty basic internet knowledge. In fact, it's arguably what I want done with my work - I put it on a public forum so other people can enjoy it, and the more accessible it is, presumably the more people are enjoying. I don't like the idea of forfeiting control over it, as would happen if it were archived/duplicated without my permission, but it's a risk I have to be prepared to take.

So at the end of the day, if my life/career/relationships can be affected in a way I'm not willing to deal with because of my fandom activity, I shouldn't participate in the fandom activity. Now, that sucks; I don't like the idea of having to curb my own enjoyment because of the possible consequences. But actions have consequences, and if I'm going to take that action, I need to at the very least be willing to gamble that I won't face the most negative consequences, or will be able to deal with them when they come.

Sometimes, there are unforeseen consequences. Sometimes, I'm unaware of the potential consequences when I take the initial action. That's valid. Then, I have to act on the new knowledge in the way I think is best - which might include taking down podfic. But I should still take action once the new knowledge comes into play, instead of hoping that the consequences won't occur and then doing a last-minute scramble or getting caught with my pants down.

Sometimes the last-minute scramble is all I've got. And then I have to suck it up and realize that perhaps I shouldn't have made the original choice, I learn and deal and go on.

By virtue of the nature of the internet, we're all entrusting our work into the hands of the public. And even if nobody in fandom ever archives/duplicates without our permission - there's still things like the Wayback Machine. The idea that we can put our work online and retain total control about how it's distributed is an illusion, and something all creators of fanworks (or any material published online) have to be willing to face.

If anyone who knows me in RL listened to my podfics I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be hard at all to figure out it's me (but I can't really see most of those people listening to podfic). I do have something of a distinct accent and what's more there's a short podfic that I've read in English, Finnish, Swedish and also my very distinct dialect of Swedish. So anyone who knows anything about those languages shouldn't have much trouble figuring out I'm Finnish and with the addition of my dialect... yeah, narrow it down to very specific region of Finland. I didn't think about that when I did it, not until someone actually did connect the dots, though not someone who knows me in RL so they still didn't know who I am. Thankfully it doesn't really matter to me much if I'm discovered (if it did I probably would have realised how easy I was making it for people).

To be honest I have a bit of trouble understanding why it's so horrible to some people if they were connected to their fannish existence. I can see it could be a bit awkward, but... I mean it's not that I don't get the reasons when someone explains them to me, I just don't have any personal experience of that kind of situation. I just can't imagine any kind of serious consequences for me, neither in personally or professionally (well, I did start studying again, so maybe I'll feel differently some day). I mean I ran my reading of an nc-17, non-con, wincest podfic through my mom and dad before posting it to find out if I sound normal while reading it (to be fair, neither of them are fluent in English so I can't say how much of it they'd get, I was checking my tone of voice not the content).

(deleted comment)

And I get that, especially when someone explains it. It's just that that kind of situation is completely out of my own realm of experience.

Not that I think people need to explain themselves, if somoeone doesn't want the two to mix in any way, then obviously that's their choice. And it's not like I'd be totally comfortable with some people in my life knowing about some of my fics/podfics.

Right. Well, I'm glad to have helped expand your horizons a little there. And that done, I'm going to delete that information, as it doesn't serve any further purpose.

That's not something that's worried me since i started dipping my toes into podfic. But then, I grew up all over the US, and quickly developed the skill (it was a defense mechanism at the time) of being able to modulate my accent and speaking rhythms to match whoever I was talking to. I don't have a single 'voice' that is unambiguously mine, and the voice I use for podfic doesn't sound much like my speaking to friends voice or my professional voice.

And well, I have some internet friends who I've trusted with my legal name & mailing address, and some RL friends who I've trusted with my fandom identity (and some internet friend who live in my city, so I've invited them to my parties with college and work and church friends). So I'm already taking a much bigger risk than just having my voice online.

I'd agree that voices are hard to identify. Even if they sound distinctive or familiar (e.g. in animated films with big name film stars doing the voices), I find it difficult to figure out who they are. The chances of someone I know IRL listening to one of my few podfics (why?) and identifying me (how?) are slim.

It was a little strange to see my fan name on last.fm, but I actually had to search for it, and it doesn't reveal anything that isn't already on the Audiofic Archive. I'll be sure not to put identifying information into the metadata on podfic files....

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