Should readers get permission to make podfic?

[jesse_the_k]

While I just argued that the act of podficcing adds "fannish value" to a work, I'm unsure that readers must obtain an OK from the writer to make a recording.

Since I'm a newbie, I did some research. While I don't think it's possible for a podfic to fundamentally change a source in the same way, I started with remixes, since there's the same "permission" issue there. It seems most remix challenges are based on a mutual remix: by participating in writing, each fan also permits their work to be remixed (with one "safe" work held inviolate).

The Fanlore Wiki told me:

 begin quote 
Though remixing in both fanfiction and vidding has become enormously popular, not all fans embrace the concept. [... snip ...] Though some fans feel any story is fair game for remixing, others believe that permission should be gained from the author first before using their work as a jumping-off point. Many fans feel it's hypocritical to reuse the original creations of the copyright holders in the canon while protesting that anyone should be allowed to remake their fanworks.
 quote ends 

Current metadata don't state whether the podfic's reader has the writer's permission. Would the absence, permission or refusal of writer's OK change how you'd choose or read podfics?

Comments

[inalasahl]

No, I don't really see a lot of fic where authors are saying ahead of time "don't." Nor do I think silence should be considered as tacit permission. I just think it's pretty easy to ask for permission, and I'm not sure under what circumstances one wouldn't want to (a surprise gift maybe?). I mean, I haven't heard of any case where someone had zir fic recorded and and got mad about it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. So, I think it's just easier to ask.

So, basically, I was thinking about a situation where one asked for permission, and was denied. You could go ahead and do it anyway, but why would you want to when there are so many people out there who would be fine with their fic being recorded?

[zvi]

It's pretty easy to ask permission ... for a copy of a fic that's been archived with still current contact info or under a pseud that leads to a website with current contact info when you search for it. I wouldn't want to hazard a guess on the percentage of stories at 852 Prospect or Heliopolis or Area 52 or an XF archive or a popslash archive or an old dS archive or, well, basically any fandom older than about two years, for which that would not apply.

And I would think that the reason you would want to record a fic, either from an untraceable or disapproving author, was because you wanted to record that fic, in the same way that I write June/Neal instead of (Elizabeth)/Peter/Neal in White Collar, because I'm interested in that scenario more than the one that would garner lots of comments fast. Or even more basically, why people choose to make fan works instead of imagining everything from 'scratch'?

Stories aren't fungible.

[inalasahl]

Well, I think there's a difference between being unable to find current contact information for an author and going ahead and recording a podfic, and choosing to record a fic over the author's objection.

You're right that stories aren't fungible, and I shouldn't have implied they were. As a writer, I find that there's never just one story I want to tell, though, even if I'm focused on a specific pairing or fandom. And from a listener's perspective, there's so much out there yet unrecorded. There's no one specific story I've been wishing someone would do.

[zvi]

Well, I think there's a difference between being unable to find current contact information for an author and going ahead and recording a podfic, and choosing to record a fic over the author's objection.

I don't think people have or will frequently make that distinction. So, if we have a politeness standard that says, "You should ask the author," and one is unable to ask, the politeness standard then implies, "Too bad, so sad, all of that fic for which an author cannot be found is now unavailable for additional transformation." And I think that's a great loss.

(frozen comment)

[(Anonymous)]

I'd like to think a reader wouldn't just merrily go ahead and podfic something that's posted under f-lock. Particularly if it's RPF.
If a writer is posting under f-lock I'm thinking zie is presuming some reasonable expectation of privacy for the work?
Further, the writer might also be attempting to limit the exposure of the RPF *subjects* by posting under f-lock in the first place. Podficcing that particular work kind of intrudes on that. IMO.

(frozen comment)

[zvi]

Unsigned anonymous comments are frozen without reply. You may repost if you add some sort of identifier; it does not have to be your most well-known fannish pseudonym. I just don't want all anons to look the same.

[zvi]

I just wanted to let you know that this sort of interesting and well-thought comment is exactly the sort of thinky stuff I was hoping this community would produce. I just didn't have a response to it, and I was giving other people a chance to respond. But as no one has, I just wanted to reassure you that you were heard.

well, if not permission, at least a heads up

[jazzypom]

Like, I pretty much write fanfic as a gift to fandom. It's my way of sharing the squee and thanking people for allowing me to be a part of the online community, etc. If I get fanart or podfic, I'm ridiculously pleased, because it's flattering and humbling that they were inspired enough by my fic to go there. I've also given permission for someone to archive a spanking fic I wrote (she was tickled, so) and I was pleased and proud that it made her want it enough to archive it.

However, its only fair to give the writer a heads up, if its just even for them to gauge how much of their work they want out there. Some authors are distinctly against their work being archived, because they want to control their own experience or they think that they might be found out and it can be costly to them.

So yeah, as long as the writer knows, and is able to decide how much of her fandom self she wants out there - because nothing gets lost online- go on with your bad self.

[(Anonymous)]

"I don't think people have or will frequently make that distinction."
*is puzzled*

This assumption proceeds from ...?

signed,
lr

[zvi]

My experience with standards of politeness in fandom is that they are often understood to allow the fewest possible number of speakers and promote behavioral conformity.

I've also had read some arguments (none of which I can find at the moment), which persuasively make the argument that the promulgation of some sorts of free licenses (specifically, CC) which explicitly permit activities which are legal regardless (specifically, transformative work making commentary on the original), puts a negative pressure on the actions when taken towards those works for which the action would still be legal, but no explicit license has been given.

[pekover]

I'm surprised by how many people think an author's permission isn't needed. I wonder if the response would be the same at a community centred around writers rather than podfics?

For me, I post my stories under f-lock. I want to control who has access to them. I'd be more than a little upset if someone took one of my stories out of f-lock and posted it openly as a podfic. I know I'm fooling myself, thinking that I have any sort of real expectation of privacy on the internet, but I would still be upset if anyone deliberately circumvented what meager control I have tried to find.

I don't really know how I feel about podfic of stories that aren't under f-lock to begin with...

[(Anonymous)]

Hmm.

Your second paragraph is looking, to me, like an issue separate and apart from the original question, but before even I try to address it, I want to make sure I understand, because this phrase

"puts a negative pressure on the actions when taken towards those works for which the action would still be legal"

is confusing me.

Are you suggesting
a) the absence of explicit refusal should indicate the presence of acquiescence?
b) the absence of explicit refusal does indicate the presence of acquiescence?


signed,
lr

[(Anonymous)]

"I wonder if the response would be the same at a community centred around writers rather than podfics?"

There are f-locked communities to which I belong where a reposting outside the community of the original (arguably transformative) author's work, without the original author's permission, is grounds for a ban from that community.

I guess that might not matter to a podficcer who's not a member of that community.

But I also guess I'm wondering what's so sufficiently compelling about the act of podficcing that a potential podficcer wouldn't at least consider a request for permission – particularly in cases, as you say, where deliberate attempts have been made to limit works' exposure.

signed,
lr

Thanks for due consideration

[jesse_the_k]

That wasn't tl;dr at all. It's the kind of exploration I hoped this thread could evince.

More experienced minds than mine have contemplated the ethics of cache-mining. (And I'd love to get pointed to them.)

In the abstract, I can respect someone's decision to pull it off the net. If it's not currently served, then taking it from the cache is "sneaky," and undermining their decision.

OTOH, I've stumbled on things I've forgotten I created on my very own hard-drive. It's easy to lose track of all the ideas and efforts that have burbled out of me along the years. So does benign neglect mean implicit permission?

And on the important third hand, I enjoy fanfic precisely because it serves my id-driven "must! have! fic!" needs. When I'm in that frame of mind, it's hard to discriminate between "sneaking around TPTB" and "sneaking around a fanfic author." (Not advocating, mind you, just reporting.)

[podcath]

That's not wholly true though, is it? Even beyond the objections that Zvi posted below (above?) about older stories, even current writers may just not respond. I asked for permission to record an SPN/J2 big Bang story from 2008, I think, so not horribly old last summer. As far as I remember I used all contact info I could find and have yet to hear a response.

I'm not sure how to handle these situations. I sometimes wonder if reasonable objection right might be the way to go. If you have any issues or don't want me to do this I will certainly respect them; otherwise I assume your tacit permission?

[inalasahl]

I didn't explicitly include never getting a response to a query in with being unable to find current contact information, but I was mentally including it.

Zvi may be right that a standard of "ask first" would lead to a perception that if someone couldn't find contact information, zie shouldn't record the fic. I still think that "asked and never got an answer" is a more defensible position (should the need for defense arrive) than "never asked."

[inalasahl]

Where do podficcers look for that information? Or where should people be posting it? In the author's note of every story? In one's journal userinfo? On the author's page of one's favorite archive? The home page of one's website?

[zvi]

jinjur was the person who suggested it, and I believe she suggested it in four places (or at least, I put it in three of those places, and assume she mentioned the fourth.)

1) Journal profile
2) Fanlore editor profile
3) AO3 profile (or, presumably, all of the profiles for any fic archives which provide profiles; e-fiction archives typically have them)
4) And I assume on one's general website, although, since I yanked my fic from my website, I never added a permissions statement there.

And I just added it as the custom text box on my journal posting comm, so it'll appear on every story read there, so long as you keep my style.

I do not know if podficcers are actually looking for such statements or not. When I've spotted such statements in the wild (I don't usually do secondary fanwork, so I haven't gone looking) they've either been on people's journal profiles or their websites.

[zvi]

Why do I need fox1013's permission to perform her Firefly fic, where I wouldn't ask Fox's, or Joss', or the cast members' permission to novelize The Train Job?

[juice]

I'm a little late to the party, but I haven't ever recorded something that's already been done because there is so much fic out there to record, I don't really see the point in redoing the same story over and over. I've heard others say they enjoy hearing multiple versions, but I have limited recording time and an ever-growing list of stories I'd love to record so it seems like a waste of time, frankly.

[zvi]

Did you ever get that worked out with support?

[anatsuno]

Well, it's a personal choice, obviously. I'm not trying to twist the arm of anyone to make them rerecord something which has been recorded already.

I'm encouraging people to not hesitate to record /whatever they want/, regardless of this consideration. If you prefer to pick stories that have never been recorded, you're obviously free to.

I just think the words 'a waste of time', though of course they're always a personal assessment, tend to often carry with them the underlying assumption of podfics as an accessibility feature rather than as a fanwork in themselves. When you say 'I don't see the point' I have to wonder if you've ever loved alternate covers of songs, you know? As an artist you're perfectly entitled to never cover any song, but to say that you don't see the point seems odd to me.

I don't have, personally, an ever growing list, and most of the stories I'd really love to record have been recorded already. So I'm in a completely different boat, and it gives me a different perspective. *shrug*

[juice]

I do love covers of songs, and actually frequently prefer covers to originals.

My perspective comes from having a long list of want-to-record fics and having limited recording time in which to do them, so given those parameters, recording a story which is already available in audio form doesn't make sense to me. But then again, I totally see podfic as an accessibility feature and don't really consider myself an artist.

If someone else chooses to record a story that has already been recorded, that's certainly their prerogative - I wasn't attempting to speak for others, merely expressing my own feelings on the subject.

[anatsuno]

Right, so you mean more like 'I don't see the point of me recording something that's already been recorded' than 'I don't see the point of stories getting recorded several times by different people'. I get it now. :)

[juice]

No, actually. I should probably just bow out of the conversation here, because this is going to be an "agree to disagree" situation, but I meant I consider it a waste of time for anyone to record something that is already recorded. But at the same time I would never presume to tell anyone else how to spend their time - clearly they must find value in recording it or they wouldn't do it, and that's fine. I know I do things others consider to be a waste of time.

This isn't just a fan-specific thing for me. There's a company - Black Hill or Black Thorn, Black something - who produced a set of Elizabeth Peter's Amelia Peabody series. I consider it a waste of their time and resources, because the versions Barbara Rosenblatt performed for Recorded Books are infinitely superior. And I have this conversation with my mother every time I tell her about going to any kind of fan convention. She thinks it's a complete waste of both time and money, but I enjoy doing it so I go when I can. Then again, she thinks anything fandom related is a waste of my time.

I don't look down on people who do things I consider a waste of time, possibly because I know my mother thinks I'm an idiot for doing things she thinks are a waste of my time and I don't want to treat other people that way, because I know how it feels. I don't generally tell others I feel this way for that reason, and because it's really none of my business what others choose to do with their time. But this is a meta comm, and the subject came up, so I gave my perspective on it. :)