Should readers get permission to make podfic?

[jesse_the_k]

While I just argued that the act of podficcing adds "fannish value" to a work, I'm unsure that readers must obtain an OK from the writer to make a recording.

Since I'm a newbie, I did some research. While I don't think it's possible for a podfic to fundamentally change a source in the same way, I started with remixes, since there's the same "permission" issue there. It seems most remix challenges are based on a mutual remix: by participating in writing, each fan also permits their work to be remixed (with one "safe" work held inviolate).

The Fanlore Wiki told me:

 begin quote 
Though remixing in both fanfiction and vidding has become enormously popular, not all fans embrace the concept. [... snip ...] Though some fans feel any story is fair game for remixing, others believe that permission should be gained from the author first before using their work as a jumping-off point. Many fans feel it's hypocritical to reuse the original creations of the copyright holders in the canon while protesting that anyone should be allowed to remake their fanworks.
 quote ends 

Current metadata don't state whether the podfic's reader has the writer's permission. Would the absence, permission or refusal of writer's OK change how you'd choose or read podfics?

Comments

[inalasahl]

Having or not having permission wouldn't change anything for me, as far as listening.

But there's so much stuff out there yet unrecorded, it seems unnecessary to record something that the author has asked not be.

[zvi]

Are there vast swathes of fic where the author has said, "Please do not make a podfic of this story."? My impression is that the state of most fanfiction is that the author is silent on the issue, with a much smaller number of other authors giving blanket permission.

Since most authors are silent, do you think that should be understood as tacit permission?

[unovis]

I've refused permission for some stories -- that is, I've both stated publicly and replied when asked that I prefer that certain stories not be podficced. As with most things fannish, the effectiveness of the author's preferences is moot.

I think it's polite to ask for permission, or at least, to let the author know a recording is being made. I think that a podfic version of a story is a transformation of the original work into a different medium and not the equivalent of text-to-speech.

[zvi]

Is there a generalized reason why you don't want some stories podfic'd, or is it peculiar to you/the stories?

I find it interesting that you're saying it's polite to let the author know a recording is being made. It seems to me that if you tell the author mid-process, prior restraint on publication seems more reasonable than if somebody had already finished the whole thing. Was that intentional or not?

[unovis]

I didn't want specific stories of mine podficced. The main one is a work in progress that's been revised a few times. To be honest, there are other stories of mine I wouldn't want to have read aloud because a component of their structure is visual -- they weren't created with recording in mind. Yeah, I know the argument about reading your work aloud to see if it's well constructed, but I also know that there are good stories that sound like crap read that way. Try reading Wodehouse aloud, some time. Different effect altogether from the impact on the page.

However, in one case I refused any recording by a podficcer who had recorded and distributed other authors' work without permission or notification. For some reason, she asked me about a planned podfic and was astonished (and felt persecuted) when I was annoyed about her other recordings. It got nasty.

So, with that in mind, I meant "is" as the ongoing as well as the immediate harvesting of an author's work.

I realized after the encounter with the unauthorized podficcer and the friends to whom she distributed her recordings, that some people will do whatever they want with fan work. They bristle at the idea that they need the author's "permission" but might dimly understand that it's polite to let the writer know that the recording of her work is taking place.

[anatsuno]

I'm not sure I understand correctly so I'm going to ask: you were annoyed with podficcer X, because they had recorded some stories written by other writers without asking their prior permission, and so this annoyance/disapproval was then the basis of your decision to not give them permission to record a story of yours when they did ask permission? This is what I think I understood; I'm just not sure it's what you meant.

[unovis]

Yeah, regretting having mentioned this, and no, that's not exactly what happened -- I summarized it badly and I don't want to open the wank again.

[anatsuno]

okay, no problem. :)

[inalasahl]

No, I don't really see a lot of fic where authors are saying ahead of time "don't." Nor do I think silence should be considered as tacit permission. I just think it's pretty easy to ask for permission, and I'm not sure under what circumstances one wouldn't want to (a surprise gift maybe?). I mean, I haven't heard of any case where someone had zir fic recorded and and got mad about it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. So, I think it's just easier to ask.

So, basically, I was thinking about a situation where one asked for permission, and was denied. You could go ahead and do it anyway, but why would you want to when there are so many people out there who would be fine with their fic being recorded?

[zvi]

It's pretty easy to ask permission ... for a copy of a fic that's been archived with still current contact info or under a pseud that leads to a website with current contact info when you search for it. I wouldn't want to hazard a guess on the percentage of stories at 852 Prospect or Heliopolis or Area 52 or an XF archive or a popslash archive or an old dS archive or, well, basically any fandom older than about two years, for which that would not apply.

And I would think that the reason you would want to record a fic, either from an untraceable or disapproving author, was because you wanted to record that fic, in the same way that I write June/Neal instead of (Elizabeth)/Peter/Neal in White Collar, because I'm interested in that scenario more than the one that would garner lots of comments fast. Or even more basically, why people choose to make fan works instead of imagining everything from 'scratch'?

Stories aren't fungible.

[inalasahl]

Well, I think there's a difference between being unable to find current contact information for an author and going ahead and recording a podfic, and choosing to record a fic over the author's objection.

You're right that stories aren't fungible, and I shouldn't have implied they were. As a writer, I find that there's never just one story I want to tell, though, even if I'm focused on a specific pairing or fandom. And from a listener's perspective, there's so much out there yet unrecorded. There's no one specific story I've been wishing someone would do.

[zvi]

Well, I think there's a difference between being unable to find current contact information for an author and going ahead and recording a podfic, and choosing to record a fic over the author's objection.

I don't think people have or will frequently make that distinction. So, if we have a politeness standard that says, "You should ask the author," and one is unable to ask, the politeness standard then implies, "Too bad, so sad, all of that fic for which an author cannot be found is now unavailable for additional transformation." And I think that's a great loss.

[(Anonymous)]

"I don't think people have or will frequently make that distinction."
*is puzzled*

This assumption proceeds from ...?

signed,
lr

[zvi]

My experience with standards of politeness in fandom is that they are often understood to allow the fewest possible number of speakers and promote behavioral conformity.

I've also had read some arguments (none of which I can find at the moment), which persuasively make the argument that the promulgation of some sorts of free licenses (specifically, CC) which explicitly permit activities which are legal regardless (specifically, transformative work making commentary on the original), puts a negative pressure on the actions when taken towards those works for which the action would still be legal, but no explicit license has been given.

[(Anonymous)]

Hmm.

Your second paragraph is looking, to me, like an issue separate and apart from the original question, but before even I try to address it, I want to make sure I understand, because this phrase

"puts a negative pressure on the actions when taken towards those works for which the action would still be legal"

is confusing me.

Are you suggesting
a) the absence of explicit refusal should indicate the presence of acquiescence?
b) the absence of explicit refusal does indicate the presence of acquiescence?


signed,
lr

[podcath]

That's not wholly true though, is it? Even beyond the objections that Zvi posted below (above?) about older stories, even current writers may just not respond. I asked for permission to record an SPN/J2 big Bang story from 2008, I think, so not horribly old last summer. As far as I remember I used all contact info I could find and have yet to hear a response.

I'm not sure how to handle these situations. I sometimes wonder if reasonable objection right might be the way to go. If you have any issues or don't want me to do this I will certainly respect them; otherwise I assume your tacit permission?

[inalasahl]

I didn't explicitly include never getting a response to a query in with being unable to find current contact information, but I was mentally including it.

Zvi may be right that a standard of "ask first" would lead to a perception that if someone couldn't find contact information, zie shouldn't record the fic. I still think that "asked and never got an answer" is a more defensible position (should the need for defense arrive) than "never asked."

[zvi]

Why do I need fox1013's permission to perform her Firefly fic, where I wouldn't ask Fox's, or Joss', or the cast members' permission to novelize The Train Job?