podficmeta | Fighting For Our Right To Party

For accessibility reasons, I support everything having a text version. (Text can be read by screenreaders, audio can not be automatically converted to a non-audio version with any reliability. Hand-transcribing text is tedious as fuck, so it's not always possible, but if the transcript already exists, it should be made available!) I'm not hearing impaired, but my comprehension (both speed and quality) is so much better with text than audio that I generally don't bother with something that doesn't have a text version unless I already know it will work for me (be it podfic, TV shows... I've even started asking for transcripts of museum audio tours and things like that when I can. I do listen to audiobooks, podcasts and podfic but only under specific conditions so I choose carefully.)

And yes, I do get annoyed when I'm well aware that there's a more-accessible version out there that people are deliberately withholding because they think they know better than me how I should experience something. (*this is spillover annoyance over general lack of transcripts, not at podficcers specifically.) I can only imagine how much more annoyed are people with actual hearing impairments, or major cognitive processing difficulties, which means they can't handle audio at all (of which I know there are many in fandom because I know many in fandom. Some of them have put in huge amounts of effort making amateur transcripts of canon available so people like them can participate fully. So someone deliberately making it harder to access transcripts that already exist? Why yes. I judge.)

And what about the people who don't have broadband or are using public or shared computers they can't download media files onto? Not the right sort of audience for some folks, clearly.

...Um. I think that covers your questions 2, 3, and 4. I am still thinking about the others.

What if there's a one-month delay and they make it clear that you can track the post and they will update it when the text is out so you won't forget about it. Or that if you prefer, you can leave a comment and they will reply with a link to the text when it's out or whatever. (So you don't have to do the work of remembering to come back in a month, you just go about your life and you'll get an email when it happens.)

And what if they say that if you have accessibility issues or computer issues or whatever (or just dislike podfic and are really eager for the fic right away), you can PM them for the transcript, but they ask that people wait if they are willing, because they are trying to make a statement about the validity of podfic as an art form rather than just a format shift from writing. And they want to give podfic readers and listeners a chance to have their moment of having their art form primary rather than secondary, though they are not trying to force anybody to listen who doesn't want podfic, and again, you can wait a month (or PM if you really don't want to wait) and you'll get the transcript. Is there any way that it could be set up that you would be like, "Okay, I see what they're doing and why, and they are being pretty fair and thoughtful about it, so even though I don't love the idea I am all right with it."

I was probably venting a lot more anger about general lack-of-transcripts on the internet than the situation outlined in the link required. A fest with the purpose of putting the podfic first clearly outlined, and the fic all going up a month later, is probably fine - I doubt I would bother/remember to go back when the text was up, and I suspect a lot more people won't either, and I personally wouldn't go promoting that fest around, but there's plenty more fic in the sea.

If it became a generally accepted practice, though, or people started saying the podfic was it, there would never be a text version (as some people are speculating, and as question 2 proposed) then it would start to be a problem.

Re: allowing people to request a transcript: generally, with accessibility, not having the accommodation at all is worst; having an accommodation that requires people to ask for it is better; having something they don't have to ask for is best. I suspect most people who wouldn't bother coming back a month later wouldn't bother PMing, either, because having to ask for the special treatment every time gets old fast. But definitely better than nothing.

I'd say that if I wanted to do something like this... I would make them both freely downloadable but frame it such that it's clear the podfic is primary and the transcript was just that, a transcript, not 'the real fic'. One way might be to make the post all about the podfic and then link to a downloadable .txt or .rtf file of the transcript in a footnote at the bottom, particularly if it's formatted like an audio transcript rather than a fiction story. Or something like that. (That might even be a better way to frame it - withholding the text version is basically saying that you are resigned to the fact that everybody will pick text over audio if they have a choice. Whereas making them both available but making the audio a lot shinier is pointing out to people that audio can be their first choice.)

Also - and this is touching on question 6 - while audiobooks/podfic of prose fiction can be done amazingly and add a lot of art to an existing story, a work that is written primarily to be performed as audio ought to be written differently than one intended to be text, ought to be written such that anybody just reading the written text will realize they're reading something that's not in its intended format, because a good audio text has different strengths than a written one.

That's really helpful, thank you.

(I am involved in a plan to run an upcoming challenge that would involve something like this.)

I see what you mean about the problems of never making a text version available, and I agree after reading your explanation that that would be a bad thing to set a precedent for.

I like the idea of making the transcript available immediately but having it as a text or rtf file. I agree that that takes away a lot of the traditional sense of the text version of the story being primary, and it also takes away the issues of withholding or making people ask for accommodations. I wonder if at that point it would still be good for the story to be posted a month later, or if it would be better for the point that was being made to have it as text-only anyway.

Now I'm trying to think of the author side. I wouldn't want to downplay their really valuable contribution to the podfic by making it seem like their writing wasn't super-important to the final piece. I mean, The Social Network needs Jesse Eisenberg *and* Aaron Sorkin, to give an example that totally shows where my mind's at lately. (And hm, thinking that way, I'd definitely want to use the term script instead of transcript, I think.)

Re: the last part, these stories would be written primarily to be performed as audio, but they'd be by authors in the habit of writing fic, so I am not sure how different they would end up being from normal fic. That would probably vary author to author.

I've actually got a project similar to Penny's on the go and I've been trying to figure out balancing accessibility needs to the fact that the story will never have been meant to be read.

I though I might have both files available in the same download, which would hopefully encourage people to go audio first without alienating accessibility needs, although I'm not sure if forcing a larger download actually qualifies as the latter.

I don't see why not have them as separate downloads. I doubt there are a lot of people who wouldn't want to listen to the audio otherwise but then, once they already have it on their computer, decide to go ahead with it. It's more likely that the choice they make about format will be influenced by what's presented in the post as the idea behind the challenge and so on, and perhaps a request you make that if people are on the fence, they give the podfic a try and experience the story the way it was intended to be or whatever.

I do think having the text as DL instead of straight in the post takes away the sense of "the default is to read, and since this is right in front of me I will go with the default." It makes it more of a measured decision which format you'll go with.

Also, as people say, if the text actually is written in a way that fits better with reading than writing, some people may choose text, read, and then be like, "you know, now that I'm seeing this, I actually think I'd really like to hear it acted, because it doesn't seem like I'm getting the full experience just seeing it." Perhaps.

...while audiobooks/podfic of prose fiction can be done amazingly and add a lot of art to an existing story, a work that is written primarily to be performed as audio ought to be written differently than one intended to be text, ought to be written such that anybody just reading the written text will realize they're reading something that's not in its intended format, because a good audio text has different strengths than a written one.

This is what I was thinking, basically. Something made primarily to be an audio art form would, I would expect, be more like a radio play than like a story being read aloud. Different format.

And it would only be polite and good practice to offer the alternative of a script or script analogue to those people who can't/won't listen. Having scripts available doesn't stop people watching movies and having scores available doesn't stop people going to concerts. They are transcriptions of the art form rather than the art form itself.

Having scripts available doesn't stop people watching movies and having scores available doesn't stop people going to concerts.

Right, but I think people are so used to the relationship of podfic being a secondary format of written stories that it would have to be marked as different in some way (like having it in a .txt or .rtf file or something) to shake up this kind of thinking. Movies and concerts didn't have the same history of being seen as secondary to a written artform (that I know of) so it may be that podfic creators in a challenge like this would have to be a little more thoughtful about how we present the text and non-text components than a creator of one of those would have to be.

I agree with your overall point that both should be made available from the beginning, though.

My main thought was that a text companion to an audio story would be different than an standalone fic, probably more like a script than a short story. If you were writing to maximize the possibilities of the new medium, that is. So that in itself would help to reinforce the primacy of the audio version.

But I have no issue with idea of making text available in a .txt or .rtf format, with the possible exception that I wonder about long-term archiving potential. (Would the file be available on a Rapidshare/Megaupload type service? What if the download expired? Would it eventually be archived in its standard form on the AO3 or a similar site?)

Would it eventually be archived in its standard form on the AO3 or a similar site?

I am thinking yes, after a month it would be posted and archived like normal? Like, that might step on the point we were making a little bit, but I think it would be unfair to the author to ask them not to do that. And as you say, long-term archiving potential is a consideration as well.

Re: the writing being different, I suppose authors and podficcers would need to experiment a bit to get a feel for that. This gets into question 6 above. I could see it being written as a monologue, which would look different than most fics (at least because few fics I see these days are first-person). Or perhaps more like a notfic than a normal fic—I just made a podfic of a notfic, and it did feel in some ways much more natural to speak aloud (with the exception of the emoticons). Or would it look different from either of those two? Either way, I don't think it would be radically different from at least some of the fics out there, because fics cover such a wide range of styles and a lot of fics already have a really strong sense of voice and rhythm, which is part of what makes podficcing such a fun hobby.

Anyway, half of the point of this challenge that a friend and I are planning to run is to explore the answer to that question: what does a podfic script look like, and how is it different from a normal fic?

I would certainly like to try writing one someday. One of my favorite fandoms is a radio play and it was actually hard for me to shift formats and write fic about it. Might be far easier to write for podfic.

(Personally I think I'd dive in and go straight for script format.)

Just a question: what is a notfic? *curious*

Notfic is like when someone tells out a story that would be fic, but they're not really *writing* it like they would if they did it properly. It tends to be more conversational, more like oral storytelling, sometimes uses chatspeak and emoticons and stuff. I just made a podfic of a notfic and it was really fun to perform.

Well, as it's my project, I guess I should answer.

I haven't read the whole thread on the anonmeme, I don't need that kind of stress in my life.

I actually don't care if people don't like podfic. I think they're missing out, but hey, I don't like fic about tentacles, so.

This was something I had wanted to try for a long time, and five of my friends were kind enough to indulge me. The fic will in face be posted as text in a month, as was made clear at every point along the way. People can either wait, or not wait and forget about it. It's not like I track downloads, and I'm zen with podfic not getting a lot of comments so it's not likely that I'd notice either way if people did dl the recording or wait for the text version.

I did Spring Fling because I wanted to try something new, and because I'm irritated by the way podfic artists are seen sometimes as nothing more that human screen readers. I stand by by I did it. Interestingly no one has come to me with any of the concerns expressed in the meme. If they had, I could have told them my reasons, and pointed out that once to month is over authors are free to promote the hell out of their fics whereever they chose, so they wouldn't miss out.

Apologies if any of this sounds bullish or aggressive. I'm operating on a severe sleep deficit and I have many 20 minuts of internet time all day today and I don't have time to phrase and rephrase everything. If you click the spring fling tag in my journal you can find a post where I talk a bit more about my reasoning.

I just wanted to chime in to say I think what you did was awesome and I'm so glad you did it. It really sucks that there's been this kind of reaction. Everyone, every single fan artist, makes the decision when they create of what kind of audience they expect to get. To me, your Spring Fling came off as being intended for those interested in podfic. I find it incredibly infuriating that all these people who are not the intended audience are getting upset about this. Especially since it's not like there's any shortage of fic or that you're completely denying them access to the fic. And, actually, full stop: I can't believe people are looking a gift horse in the mouth. Fandom is built on people providing their time and creative efforts for fun, no one owes anyone anything and we should all have the freedom to create whatever we want however we want.

Apologies if any of this sounds bullish or aggressive.
I don't actually think that came off as bullish or aggressive at all.

Thank you! I just wanted to do it as a bit of fun, and a different challange. Sadly it seems to have had the opposite affect and it has made me think twice about doing something similar in the future

I think it's a really neat idea. <3

<3 thank you! I had hoped other people might try something similar as it was fun, but maybe the reaction it got may mean people think twice about it.

My patience timed out trying to get the anonmeme link to load, so I'm just going to answer the questions without that background.

1) I know that podfic is cool. I know this having never listened to one, because all sorts of people love it, love making it, love listening to it, and they say so in their journals and in places like this. I don't want anyone trying to convince me to try it. I know how my brain receives verbal information, and I know that a fanfic is too complex an item and at the same time, a reading of a text is too, hmmm, all of a sameness in presentation for it to work for me. (Also Ubuntu doesn't want to play sound through my headphone jack.)

For people not like me, but who are hesitant to try podfic, my advice is to make some small samples that can be embedded in a journal post and are one click to listen to. Tantalizing samples of new works with lovely cliff-hangers.

2) If a story is never posted as text you are keeping something from people who can not, choose not to, may not or prefer not to access fic any other way. I'm not saying that's morally wrong, necessarily, I'm just saying yes you are, and it's not all about preference.

3) I can absolutely see the point of promoting podfic as an art form by having some podfic only fic releases, or podfic first fic releases. I can see the point of that as strengthening community for podfic creators too. I'm not someone who believes everything in fandom is for everybody--er, just don't advertise yourself as universal if you're never going to try to be. Simultaneous release is less controversial. Sometimes controversy is the price of the thing you want to achieve.

4) Oh, well, know up front that being annoyed is just how some people do fandom. But, explain in simple terms somewhere in the first nine paragraphs of your announcement post (there is some science that people drift off after 9 paragraphs in news articles) how easy it will be for us textophiles to access the text of the story and when that will happen. How? Make sure it will work for anons as well as people who would like an email or comment letting them know.

5) I have no opinion.

6) Oh, someone please answer this! I find this idea fascinating. I read aloud my stories at final edit stage, and that surely helps with a story meant to be read, but is there a style of writing that works, or some that don't? How does knowing you're writing to be read change the work?

wandering in via Metafandom...

Speaking as a person for whom podfic and audiobooks don't really work well (I've listened to a few, may listen to a few in the future, and I am wildly flattered that I have had a few of my own fics podficced, but A/V will never be my preferred format for this kind of thing) I have no problem at all with this! Yes, if this was done in my fandom, it is very likely that I would wait for the text version, because podbooks/audiobooks do not suit my particular needs as a fan. But as far as I'm concerned, it's the author who gets to choose how to present their story, and if the author feels that their work is better presented in audio format, why shouldn't they? I don't feel like anyone is "forcing" me to do anything, any more than I feel like someone is "forcing" me to read a fic in French by not making an English version available. If you don't make it available in text format at all, then yes, of course you are in some sense "keeping" it from people who find text more accessible, but I don't find that any more manipulative or bothersome than a fic being available in text-only format.

It makes me think in some ways of fandom's perennial argument over posting a completed fic as a WIP vs. posting it all in one go. Some people argue that the author is "withholding" the finished story by doling it out in chunks. I really don't see it that way. As a reader, I often prefer to read in small installments anyway (it works better with my schedule) but there are also times when I would rather read the whole thing in one go, or would like it all on one page for downloading purposes, and then all I have to do is exert a bit of patience and wait 'til the author gets to that point. And ultimately I think it is the author's choice anyway.

As far as doing outreach to people who are indifferent or hostile to the idea of podfic-first fanfic ... I'm not sure if you can, really, other than by presenting it with fun and squee, and trying not to tear down the other side. I mean, it just will not be for some people, and these people already know who they are. Me, for one. Having people proselytize at me about podfic doesn't help, because I already know why it doesn't work for me. But seeing people playing happily in the podfic playground, obviously having fun, was what got me to check out a little bit of it and may get me to check out more in the future. I'm not saying it's entirely a matter of "build it and they will come!" because obviously there is more to it than that, but it seems to me like it's more important to build such a thing for fans who are already interested, than to try to cater to the uninterested and indifferent.

2) Well, yes, you are keepking something from people who prefer text.

3) I would say the arguments are the same as the arguments for and against zines in the age of the internet. Once upon a time zines where the only way to access fanfic. With the rise of the internet, fanfic that was published in zines became something that was only accessible to a limited number of people while everyone else had to wait for the net release. Podfic-only or podfic-first publications recreate that dynamic. Even the linked anon thread reads like something from the zine debates.

Well, yes, you are keepking something from people who prefer text.
You're assuming that there's a text version of the audio. I'm not saying this has happened (although I really want to try it now!) but it's totally possible for someone to just sit down in front of a mic and tell a story without having anything written down (or maybe only crib notes or an uncompleted draft). In which case creating a text version could be a lot of extra work.

But whether or not there is a written version that just hasn't been released, I still don't think it's wrong or anything for it to remain unreleased. People make decisions all the time about how accessible they want their fanworks to be to their audience. Many authors choose to lock their fic, limiting who can read it. Lots of people choose not to include ratings or warnings with their works, making it inaccessible to those with triggers (or making it difficult to access). Hell, fandom, pairing and, yes, medium will affect what kind of audience their work will get. No one has to make their work universally available and accessible to everyone. In fact, it's kind of impossible.

Sure people are used to getting their stories in text format. But it's becoming more common for vids to tell full stories. Or, would people really be demanding a text version if we were talking about comics, or other visual & story based fan arts?

With the rise of the internet, fanfic that was published in zines became something that was only accessible to a limited number of people while everyone else had to wait for the net release.
I actually thought about zines too when reading the discussion, however I think there are some key differences between the two. With zines the limiting factor for accessibility was money and distribution and that's not a limiting factor for podfic. The limiting factor with podfic is that many people prefer to read stories over hearing them (with some people who are unable to listen to stories). If we're talking about preferences, I prefer to listen to my stories over reading it (and some people are unable to read stories) but I don't think anyone would ever demand authors provide podfic just to please me and make it extra accessible. Lots of authors even read their fic aloud before posting, so they'd just have to turn on a mic and it wouldn't even be extra work on their part!

I think the real issue here is that releasing stories as podfic isn't something we're used to. Online fandom is largely text oriented and we're not used to having to cope with fandom outside of that (never mind that we mostly leave those unable to handle text to figure it out how to get around that on their own or go somewhere else). And it gets me because fandom is largely text oriented, if that's what works for you (general you for this entire paragraph) and audio does not, there's sooooo much available in text format that why are you freaking out/complaining/getting annoyed that such a small percentage isn't catering to you. Sure you'll miss out on a story, maybe even a great one, but there are hundreds, thousands more that you don't have to miss out on. It's like complaining that someone wrote a fic in French instead of English so you can't read it, when everyone knows that English is the dominant and most accessible language for fandom. Sometimes, it just wasn't made with you in mind.

Sorry frogspace, this isn't really meant to be a rant at you (your comment was just the one I could get my thoughts out most clearly in response to).

it's totally possible for someone to just sit down in front of a mic and tell a story without having anything written down

I've actually heard people do this in conversation. It's awesome and one of the reasons I love spending time with fannish people when I can. And I totally wish I could have whipped out my mic one of those times and made a recording, because it would have been perfect to share.

Oh man, now I am plotting a little about if I could get those same people in a room at one point and turn on the mic and just be like OKAY GO. Because that would be beautiful.

I actually find speaking so much easier than writing when it comes to getting my ideas out(which is why I asked if I could call you tonight). It's actually become pretty common for me to whip out my mic and saying a post before I type it up. When I try to type things out they're a lot more fragmented and less clear, so I'll talk things up and use that as a basis for writing it up later.

I haven't tried it specifically for fic yet but I think it might be a project for sometime in the future (ya know, when I have free time again :S).

You're assuming that there's a text version of the audio.

Yes, I do. Based on the question, the context of the discussion, and every podfic I've ever listened to. If there is no text version, the question doesn't make sense and we are talking about something altogether different. If there is any fanfic audio performance out there that is spontaneous storytelling without any text basis, I would be thrilled to find it. So far no luck.

I still don't think it's wrong or anything for it to remain unreleased.

I didn't say it's wrong.

I actually thought about zines too when reading the discussion, however I think there are some key differences between the two.

And yet you bring exactly the same arguments and thus prove my point that introducing limiting factors to the fic introduces the same arguments to the discussion. *g*

Sorry frogspace, this isn't really meant to be a rant at you

No problem. I didn't say any of those things you are ranting against, so... *shrugs*

Yes, I do. Based on the question, the context of the discussion, and every podfic I've ever listened to. If there is no text version, the question doesn't make sense and we are talking about something altogether different.

Actually, the question reads: 2) If a story only ever gets posted as podfic, are you keeping something from people who prefer text?
No where in there does it say that there's a text version in existence, it simply says "story" which can just as easily imply a verbal story as a textual one. So this question totally makes sense if we're talking about stories without a text version.

And yes, historically most podfic/audiofic has been based on a story with a pre-existing text, however as

busaikko pointed out (and as I suggested in my previous comment) that's not always the case. It may not be a common occurrence (at the moment) but making sweeping statements as you, and others in this discussion, have done ignores those exceptions. And unfortunately those kinds of sweeping statements have a habit of becoming a "fandom rule" and people feel they can't break them later on so I think it's important not to forget these uncommon occurrences.

And yet you bring exactly the same arguments
OK, and this is where I admit that I have never actually run across any zine wank (I was thinking about zines and hold back the online release of fic when I said I thought about zines) so can't actually speak to the wank side of the zine debate.

2) That would imply that people are entitled to that something in the first place, though, wouldn't it? I mean, "You're keeping it from them!" sounds like I have the text version in my hand, holding it up, while all around me desperate readers are jumping up and down to reach it.

If a story is written to be released as podfic and not as text, that's a bit like complaining there's only a movie when you wanted a theatre play.

2) That would imply that people are entitled to that something in the first place, though, wouldn't it?

No, it doesn't imply anything like that. The question postulates that a text exists and that it is not made accessible and the question was if that does keep the text from the people who would prefer the text. The answer to that is yes. Whether this is something that should or shouldn't be done, should be seen as a good thing, a bad thing, anything in-between, or whatever judgment someone wants to infer from this, depends entirely on the person making that judgment. That doesn't change the basic fact that an existing text that is not made accessible is in fact not accessible to the people who would like to access that text.

Ah. I didn't realise you were going with the literal interpretation, sorry.

Basically I think that offering an audio version of the story while intentionally keeping back the text version is a bit of an accessibility fail.

I can definitely see podfic as its own art form rather than as an echo of an already existing fic. But it seems to me that podfic has to make the argument for its primacy by clearly offering something that's not available in its text version, rather than through making that text artificially difficult to get hold of.

Man, I just do not get the "yes, you're keeping something from people" argument, and I don't even like podfic! I guess I feel like there's a billion and five fanfics, so so what if someone records something that's podfic only? It's not like that means there's less to read. I like the comparison above about other language fics. I don't feel like something is being withheld from me if someone writes a story in Russian or Spanish and doesn't post an English version of it...

Edited 2011-05-12 06:00 (UTC)

4) How do you present the idea to people of a staggered release without annoying them?

I don't see why I would have to try not to annoy people. It's fandom; being annoyed by random nonsense is what people do. Some people will break their fingers on the back button if someone uses "dick" instead of "cock" in a fic. It's their prerogative to do their thing. It's my prerogative to do mine.

Besides, the general assumption seems to be that once something is posted on the internet, the original creator holds neither title to nor control over it. That may be so. But with podfic vs. text, the original creator (one half of them, at least, if narrator and author aren't the same) retains control over how something is posted, and in this particular case, when. I can see how that would go against the sort of fannish entitlement that sees authors as writing machines (I'm sure George R. R. Martin would find the discussion at the meme somewhat entertaining), but frankly, that's the readers' problem.

melannen's argument for accessibility makes sense (though I can't be the only one remembering that unfortunate post about podfic as an accessibility tool for those whose eyesight fails them, which did make a few good points among all the bad), but in terms of a staggered release, those who rely on text versions would only have to wait a slightly longer period of time. Seeing as how text versions make up the vast majority of fandom, I don't see how this would be a major issue. Putting both versions out there seems like the obvious way to go to include the largest-possible portion of fandom, but usually the text gets released way before the podfic, and I don't see anyone make a fuss there.

2) But... this happens? Remember those audio stories and mockup episodes made by mixing together canon dialog so it sounded like Jim and Blair were having loud sex? I have never seen transcripts of those. Nor have I seen outrage at the lack of transcripts.

3) I have trouble understanding cinema/TV audio. I buy DVDs so I can read the subtitles. I watch TV shows, and then I look online for posted transcripts. So audio first, then text is not new to me. I also grew up listening to the BBC World Service, which had fantastic radio dramas and game shows with no text available. I am all for podfic-first as well as podfic-only releases, if that is the native form of the art.

4) I'm assuming this is fanfic; just post it to the regular comms. If people are really eager, they can track the post or the tag.

5) Yes.

So the basic argument against no release (or delayed release) of the text of a fic is that you’re denying (or delaying) people the ability to consume a story how they want/need, when you don't have to.

I'm curious what the reaction would have been if the circumstances were different and people were saying that authors saying no when people ask to podfic their fic were denying podfic fans access to their works in their desired medium, that authors were making their works inaccessible to those that have issues with text.

this.

Well, I personally judge those people too.

Although (as I mentioned above) text-to-speech programs are much more advanced than speech-to-text, and also the bandwidth/tech/format problems aren't there, so the accessibility issue is somewhat less in that direction. In ten years, maybe not.

Fighting For Our Right To Party

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