podficmeta | Pointing Out Errors?

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Pointing Out Errors?

I was wondering how useful it is for podficers to have listeners point out when they've made a mistake?
I know with fic many author's are ok with having typos or spelling errors pointed out, but how useful is it for podficers? It's a lot easier to edit an LJ entry then it is to go back and edit a podfic then re-upload and all that.
I could see it being really useful if it's a mistake they're likely to repeat in the future, like mispronouncing a common word or fandom specific term. But what if it's just a one off mistake?

As a follow up question, will mistakes stop you from listening to a podfic? Either by making you stop or by stopping you from listening to it again.

Personally, in the last two days I've re-listened to podfics that had mispronunciation errors. In one fic it's of a fandom specific term. I haven't really examined if that has made me listen to the podfic less, although the word is used often and I haven't listened to the podfic as often as my love of the fic should cause. In the second case, it's a podfic I really love, but a podficer I love and it's a one off word unlikely to ever come up in her other podfics, however it bothers me so much that I started cringing 5 minutes before the mistake happened in anticipation, the mistake was memorable enough for me to be able to anticipate it 5 minutes in advance and it prompted me to make this post.

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Huh. I think one-off mistakes I'll forgive, but it's a good question where the tipping point is. (Not that I have room to talk; as a non-native speaker, my reading is bound to sound, if not wrong-per-se, then at least odd, occasionally.)

it's a good question where the tipping point is.
You know, the more I think about it and read the comments, I think the tipping point for me really depends on the reader. If someone is a non-native English speaker I'm going to give them a lot more leeway on pronunciations so long as I can still tell what they mean. Hell, even if they are a native English speaker but have a very different accent than mine I'll give them more room.

For the examples I gave in my post, the first one where they constantly mispronounced a word and it bugged me but didn't really throw me out, it was a reader with an English accent. If the word hadn't been a made up word from the show, I would have just assumed that's how they pronounced the word in England.
The second example I gave however, was from an American podficer, and a damn good one at that. Even though it's totally understandable why she mispronounced the word (it was a non-English name, so...) it threw me out because normally she pronounces things as I would and that was not how I would pronounce that name. Also, I think it threw me out harder because the podficer is such a good one, I have higher standards for her (that doesn't sound fair, but that's how I react instinctively...).

Ah, that's good to hear...and probably a good point: if the whole reading is a little different (not bad! different! ;) then few things will be jarring to begin with?

Yeah, I'm not actually a super picky person that demands complete perfection :P Actually, even if I dislike the style/accent/voice/recoding's background noince of a reader I'll often still listen to the podfic multiple times if I enjoy story.

It's just... if you expect things to be different then you're not surprised when they are.

Speaking as a podficcer, I always want to know, no matter how small the error. As a listener, mistakes will make me stop listening to my own recordings but I am much more tolerant of other readers and will overlook their errors unless they're huge.

Speaking as a podficcer, I always want to know, no matter how small the error
*blushes* I guess this is where I admit that one of the examples I listed above was one of your podfics? It really was a small thing, and within the context of the text you could even make the argument that mispronunciation was within character....

It was the podfic Imprint, right near the end (the second last sentence). When the interview wraps up and they go on to talk about the documentary that Jared and Jensen are in, there's the line "and Cerise and Phillipe Cote, a recently diagnosed Type II couple in their fifties from Quebec City, Canada."
Cote is the lazy way of spelling Côté. In the podfic you pronounced the name like coat, when it's actually pronounced co-teh, or with an anglophone accent co-tay (and wow I'm not sure how helpful my spelling out of the sounds will be, but if you're interested I could send an audio file).

I'm not sure if American's pronounce that name without the accents, but since the characters are from Quebec, I know for a fact that the couple would call themselves Côté. If American's do change the pronunciation, then it would make sense that an interviewer referring to them would pronounce it that way too. Just... as a Canadian living in a bilingual city on the Quebec boarder that really threw me out of the story. It's just not how you pronounce that name here. So. I'm probably overly sensitive to it.

Also, um, I know you just said you'd like to know about these things, but I feel kind of bad, at least about how I brought it up. I though really hard about mentioning this to you when I first listened to the fic. However, I know I suck at commenting and if I've left you feedback before, it has been no where near the appropriate levels for the amount that I fangirl you and adore all your podfics so it felt slightly, I don't know, bitchy? to have one of my only comments to you be one pointing out an error. :-S

mistakes will make me stop listening to my own recordings
Heh, I totally get that. When I listen to my own podfics, or watch my own vids I have a lot more trouble appreciating them since it seems all I notice are the mistakes or things I could have done differently/better.

I am much more tolerant of other readers and will overlook their errors unless they're huge.
*nods* I'm pretty tolerant too and since I spend so much time listening to podfics, even podfics with readers whose styles I don't like, or whose accent is too... strong (strong isn't the right word, more an accent I'm not used to so have more trouble following I guess) I'll listen to multiple times if I like the story.

I think for me it comes back to what I discussed above with

monanotlisa about tipping points and what is enough to actually pull me out of a story. And how each podficer is going to have a different tipping point. If the podficer has a very different accent than I, or the people that I talk to every day, have then I'm going to just assume that many of things pronounced differently are just how you pronounce those words if you have that accent. But if the podficer has a similar accent to mine or those around me, then I'm more likely to be thrown if you say something differently than I would have. Which is what happened in this case. Or, say My Man Ackles read by

sadcypress. I had to stop listening to that podfic about a minute in, since she pronounced valet as it's spelled, rather than "valay" as I've always heard it pronounced. I looked it up, pronouncing the word as it's spelled, pronouncing the T, is an accepted way of pronouncing the word. However, I've never actually heard anyone here pronounce the it that way so it just kept throwing me out of the story. I think maybe if it had been someone with a British accent or something I might have been able to get past it but... *shrugs* Which, um, isn't fair to podfic readers that (in my head at least) I give some readers passes where I wouldn't others but you can't really help your gut feelings and podfic really is so subjective.

Edited (fixed HTML fail) 2010-03-19 00:17 (UTC)

I can see how it might feel bitchy, but I definitely wouldn't have taken it that way, because I really do want to know. I always want the recording to be the best I can possibly make it. Of course I love to hear positive things too. *g* Spelling them out is very helpful - is the emphasis on the "co" or the "teh"?

all I notice are the mistakes or things I could have done differently/better

SO much yes! I really can't listen to most of my recordings once they've been posted because I can always find something I think I can do better or that I want to say differently. It drives me crazy.

Valet as it's spelled is a very American pronunciation, and in the pretentious parody that that story is, "valay" would have taken me out of it. *g* But generally speaking, valet as it's spelled makes me cringe. I'm not sure why, but there you go - it's so incredibly subjective and it's also something you do for your own entertainment, so if one person entertains you more than another does, it makes complete sense to me that you'd give them more leeway. I'll stop there before I get completely tl;dr on you. ;)

Sorry for the delay in answering, it was a family weekend for me and I was away from the computer.

Anyway, I though probably the easiest way to do this was to just send an audio file since the only way I can really think to expound on the pronounciation in text for is with accents. So, here is a me saying it :)

I really can't listen to most of my recordings once they've been posted because I can always find something I think I can do better or that I want to say differently. It drives me crazy.
If it makes you feel any better, this is honestly the first time I've ever noticed anything off with your podfic and I've listened to quite a few multiple times.

Valet as it's spelled is a very American pronunciation, and in the pretentious parody that that story is, "valay" would have taken me out of it.
Huh, knowing that it's done in parody makes me feel better. I'll give the podfic another shot with that in mind.

No worries! I appreciate the audio file and have fixed the recording. Thank you so much for helping me with it! New links are in the original post here.

It does make me feel better to hear that, thank you. It's one of those things where we're harder on ourselves than others are, but it helps to know that others don't have a problem with the recordings.

Yeah - that was a tongue in cheek story, completely with deliberately atrocious photo manips. *g*

Oh awesome :) I'll download and take a listen as I finish listening to As This Sunset Turns to Morning.

I became curious after reading about the mistake on pronouncing Cote, and decided to check out the pronunciation the way I do words I'm not sure about before recording them.

But dictionary.com didn't have it (love how they'll pronounce the word for you). And my google-fu failed me, because my searches didn't turn up how to pronounce it, either.

I suppose in the future if I can't find a pronunciation I could ask in the LJ community 'little_details', or ask my flist or other communities.

I get how hearing a town's name mispronounced will jar someone who does know the correct pronounciation. I was at a meeting the other day when that happened and six other people in knee-jerk reaction corrected the speaker. And sometimes the same spelling is used for two different towns and they are pronounced radically different, just to further confuse the issue.

It's damn tricky, in other words, to get stuff like name places right, if you aren't already familiar with it and your research turns up nothing helpful.

I'd be interested in hearing if anybody has any other suggestions for pronunciation resources for tracking down words that aren't listed in the on-line dictionaries.

Laurie

I stumbled across the Forvo web site when I was looking up how to pronounce a trademarked product. Pronunciations of words are requested and contributed by users, and it looks like they have a pretty eclectic mix so far.

Thank you! I've bookmarked the site.

Laurie

THANK YOU! I didn't know about this site, much belated, but it is so *helpful*. Like, immediately, Podbang helpful. Cheers.

...goes to check another word. And by helpful, I mean has proved me wrong in many instances spread over four hours.

Edited 2010-10-26 11:50 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a lot harder to find existing audio files of names, especially non-English names (or hell, just non-English words). Like I said, it's an incredibly understandable mistake to make, it's just one that happened to hit my knee-jerk.

I wonder if it would be worth while to create a podficing community just for people wondering how to pronounce certain hard to find words. I know I screwed up the pronunciation of Myfawny in the Torchwood podfic I did (damn BBC with their canon that doesn't make it on the show, I couldn't even go to the source to find out how to say it!).

Ye Gods! Welsh? You're brave.

I dunno about starting a new com. What about using podfictips or amplificathon to ~~throw oneself on the mercy of the flist~~ ask for help?

Laurie

Ha, I spent quite a bit of time Googling Myfawny, and cam across a bunch of Youtube videos of men singing but I couldn't actually make out what they were saying so it wasn't actualy helpful. In that same fic there's one section where Ianto says a sentence in Welsh, I'm sure anyone who actually knows Welsh would weep at my pronunciation.

What about using podfictips or amplificathon
Well, I'm sure they would let us, I'm just worried about it getting spammy. However, it's not like I have time to run such a comm, so I suppose those will have to do :)

Pronunciation mistakes can't make me stop listening unless I absolutely can't understand the reader...and I've never encountered a podfic like that. (I did stop listening to a podfic where the reader sounded like she had too much saliva in her mouth. I kept thinking "swallow, goddammit!" and lost track of the story.)

A possible exception: mispronouncing a major character's name. I probably wouldn't mention it to the reader, but maybe they'd want to know?

The only type of mistake I'd really want to point out is an editing mistake--where the reader re-read a line and then forgot to remove the first take. It can be fixed without re-recording, unlike pronunciation errors.

"Ronan" instead of "Ronon" would make me stop. Just, y'know. ;)

Pronunciation mistakes can't make me stop listening unless I absolutely can't understand the reader...
Pronunciation has only made me stop listening once in recent memory (although there are a few that I'll never re-listen to, due to accents) and actually it wasn't a mispronunciation in that case but an alternate pronunciation (according to the dictionary, I had never actually heard anyone say the word that way before). It was a word that was being used repeatedly in the fic, otherwise I would have just gritted my teeth through it.

A possible exception: mispronouncing a major character's name.
I have actually come across podfic where readers have done that. I think too I'm also more sensitive to fandom specific terms. The first example I gave in my post, the reader kept mispronouncing naquadah. Or I've listened to fics where the reader couldn't say Athosian or Sateda. Those are words I can't assume the deviation is due to different dialects or accents since those words only exist in one form, on the show. So while I'd be ok with John saying "tomahto" if the reader isn't North American, it's going to be weird for me if Teyla calls her people "Athuseeans" or if Ronon says he's from "Sadea"

It can be fixed without re-recording, unlike pronunciation errors.
Yeah, I can see that. Which is why I'd be a lot more hesitant to point out a one off error. The one off error I was thinking of above had the reader mispronounce an OCs surname. It happened once in the fic and it's unlikely that she'll ever have to say that name again in podfic. Is there much value in telling the podficer? Probably not (although since she said she'd like to know I did tell her). However if they're someone who's planning on podficing a lot in a specific fandom and they consistently mispronounce common words, or fandom specific words, wouldn't it be beneficial for them to know? So that they don't make the same mistakes in future podfics?

Concerning fandom pronunciation issues, I think there's also a distinction to be made between book and tv/movie fandoms, where anyone familiar with the source text for the latter knows how certain words are pronounced, but the same isn't true for the former. Who's to say what the "correct" pronunciation of Aziraphale is?

But yeah, pointing out fandom mispronunciations could be very useful for the reader.

That is very true. And even in TV/Movie fandom it can be hard. In Stargate, how many different pronunciations of Goa'uld made it into canon? Or, like in Torchwood, where it's canon that the pterodactyl is named Myfawny, but they've never actually called her that in the show.

::whispers::

The name's Myfanwy, not Myfawny. It's a fairly well-known Welsh name, and in English it's pronounced, afaik, Miff-ANN-whi. (Or you could make an argument for writing it Mivv-ANN-whi, I suppose.)

Sorry! Sorry, not trying to be a dick - just, we're embracing the pedantry, right? And you sound a bit bemused about the name?

I'm having a tough time with this one. I recently listened to a long piece by a non-native speaker, and her particular accent affected her pronunciation of a major character's name. At first it was just kind of a "tomato, tomahto" difference, but after several hours it became a deal-breaker. To let the reader know about this particular error would seem to me to be a criticism of her accent, and that just seems too personal.

For myself, my podfic-making rate is so glacially slow that, while I would appreciate knowing that I mispronounced, say, an American place name, the likelihood that I'll ever podfic that specific word again is very small.

The correction would, however, make me much more careful to vet the next text for unfamiliar words BEFORE I come to them at at the end of an hourlong recording session.

Yeah, when it comes to non-canon words I'm willing to give a lot of room for dialects/accents but for things like names or canon specific words it's a lot harder for me to take. I know that I'm really hesitant to go in offering corrections or to let people know that something like this bothers. I think it really depends on the podficer. If it seems like they'd be open to it.

The correction would, however, make me much more careful to vet the next text for unfamiliar words BEFORE I come to them at at the end of an hourlong recording session.
And that's really what it comes back to for me on this. Once a podfic is out there, it's out there and it's very hard to get a corrected version on people's computers, however if you're planning on podficing more in the future, wouldn't you want to know?

One of the realities that comes along with English as lingua franca -- highest common denominator of our net-borne fandom -- is there are many varieties of English pronunciation. Scholars even speak of "Englishes."

A consistent mispronunciation is as jarring to me as a consistent misspelling. I don't have a known tipping point, but I would be thrilled to offer a pronunciation beta service.

I was able to use that service in the past when I narrated an African folk-tales book for a university. I scanned the text for proper names and other words I was unsure about and emailed the list to the prof. He read back the list on tape, and I practiced with those words so I was confident when I read them.

I'm happy to offer the same to anyone who's interested. (Of course, this depends on the podficcer knowing they need the support.)

The best way to improve spelling is by reading, reading, reading. I'd suggest that, in addition to sponging up canon, it can be very helpful to listen, listen, listen to internet radio local to the fandom. While there are quite a few Due South fans who grew up in Northern Canada, one can get some familiarity with the sounds of Inuktitut by tuning into CBC/North radio.

Edited (because I misspelled "Inuktitut" *blush*) 2010-03-19 22:24 (UTC)

One of the realities that comes along with English as lingua franca -- highest common denominator of our net-borne fandom -- is there are many varieties of English pronunciation. Scholars even speak of "Englishes."
*nods* And I think people are hyper aware of that in the podficing fandoms and sometimes it holds us back when we should maybe be mentioning things.

People have a much larger reading/writing vocabulary than they do a speaking vocabulary. There are lots of words that you can come across or use in print that you've never actually heard spoken aloud. I know that I'm over at m-w.com listening to pronunciations a lot when I podfic, and can be consistently surprised because in my head I was saying those words completely differently. And those are the ones I doubt myself on enough to check. Betas are ♥

God, it's probably me.

Yeah, I'd rather know, at least if it's something I can avoid in future stories. If it's something that I fucked up in a one-off way - well, I'm not likely to go back and edit the story for one pronunciation thing. (Although I flinch every time I listen to 'The Incestuous Courtship of the Antichrist's Bride' because I repeatedly pronounce "boomstick" as "broomstick" - fucking legacy of HP fandom hardwired my brain, or something, IDEK. It makes me headdesk miserably, but at this point I'm not going to go back and redo and reload.)

But, yeah - I guess I'd rather know.

Heh, actually, you weren't one of the specific examples I mentioned above and I can't honestly think of any times your pronunciation has thrown me out of a story. It might have happened but I can't remember any off the top of my head. I think too, if you had said something that seemed off to me, I would be more likely to give you a free pass. Since we have very different accents (I'm Canadian) I would have assumed that any possible mispronunciations were due to accent differences.

Unless it was something really obvious like mispronouncing a character's name or something that is really part of canon (like, I remember listening to this one SGA fic by a British podficer (I can't remember who), where they pronounced lieutenant the non-American way with the F sound in the middle. Even though that's a legit way to say that word, it's not what John is, he's in the American military).

Anyway, that's a very tl;dr way of saying, no, you weren't one of the examples I gave above, and I'm probably not the best person to ask if you've been making mistakes that pull people out, since any mistakes you make aren't all that likely to pull me out. :)

Unless it was something really obvious like mispronouncing a character's name or something that is really part of canon (like, I remember listening to this one SGA fic by a British podficer (I can't remember who), where they pronounced lieutenant the non-American way with the F sound in the middle. Even though that's a legit way to say that word, it's not what John is, he's in the American military).

For me, it only bothered me when John or another American character said it that way in dialogue, not when the narrator used it. (I don't think it would have bothered me if the reader had simply replaced one vowel for another, i.e. "tomahto" for tomato or "conTRAHversy" for controversy. But when you start playing with consonants to me, they become heteronyms.)

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Pointing Out Errors?

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